On Jan. 13, a second march on Washington in solidarity with Palestine will take place, following the record-breaking mobilization this past November. Conditions on the ground in Gaza have drastically deteriorated since the first national march, and the urgency of taking action has only increased. Input from labor has also only grown since last fall, with major unions like the UAW throwing its support behind a ceasefire. Yet for many, the question of solidarity with Palestinians remains a distinct issue from what some see as the core concerns of the labor movement. SEIU rank-and-file members Emma Mae Weber and Ryan Harvey speak with The Real News on why they’re attending the march on Washington, and why they think the voice of the labor movement is sorely needed on the issue of Palestine.
Post-Production: David Hebden
Transcript
Maximillian Alvarez: Welcome everyone to The Real News Network Podcast. My name is Maximillian Alvarez. I’m the editor-in-chief here at The Real News, and it’s so great to have you all with us. It has been three months since the October 7 Hamas-led attacks in Southern Israel culminated in the brutal killing of over 1,100 people, including nearly 700 Israeli civilians, hundreds of security forces, and dozens of foreigners. Hamas forces also captured around 250 hostages from Israel during the attack. Since then, however, over the past three months, Israel’s scorched-earth assault on the Gaza Strip has wrecked a devastation unseen in the 21st century. According to Gaza’s Health Ministry, nearly 23,000 Palestinians have now been killed in Gaza since October 7, the majority of them women and children, with countless others still buried under the rubble. Nearly 90% of Gaza’s population has been displaced from their homes.
With each passing day, more Israeli bombs are falling on Gaza, and more bodies are being blown apart, and buried under the rubble. The world has borne witness to a genocidal military campaign and an ethnic cleansing happening in real time to clear out Gaza once and for all, and every day, every hour, it feels like the chance to stop one of humanity’s most inhumane crimes is slipping through our fingers. This is prompting activists and people of conscience around the world to take direct action to try to disrupt the war machine themselves and to try to force a ceasefire and an end to the Israeli occupation.
On November 4 of last year, for instance, the largest pro-Palestine rally in US history took place in the heart of Washington D.C. when over 100,000 people rallied to demand an immediate ceasefire and an end to the violent 75-year Israeli occupation of Palestine. I was there on the ground with my fellow journalist, Jaisal Noor, covering the demonstration for The Real News. If you have not already, I highly recommend that you take a few minutes to watch our on-the-ground report from that demonstration, because it was really, really powerful. And this Saturday, January 13, 2024, demonstrators from across the country will once again descend on the nation’s capital for the March on Washington for Gaza. Co-organized and co-sponsored by Code Pink, the American Muslim Task Force for Palestine, and many other organizations.
Today we’re going to talk about labor’s role in this fight and we’re going to talk with some of the workers and unionists who are going to the demonstration on Saturday as workers and unionists and people of conscience. Listen, as we’ve talked about many times here at The Real News Network, labor has a long and proud tradition of using worker power to fight against war, genocide, and apartheid around the globe. Let us not forget the heroic actions taken by members of the International Longshore and Warehouse Union who protested apartheid in South Africa and even refused to unload South African cargo at ports here in the US.
Sadly, over the past three months, organized labor in the US has been moving slowly when it comes to taking an active stand against the destruction of Gaza and the slaughter of Palestinians. Now, that is not to discount the brave and necessary actions that certain national unions, local unions, and rank-and-file groups have taken, over the past three months and even before, to stand against the violence of Israeli occupation like the United Electrical Workers, the United Auto Workers, Starbucks Workers United, and so on. But sadly those groups are largely the exception rather than the rule, or at least that has been the case over the past three months. But it hopefully looks like that is changing.
I want to introduce our incredible guests today who are going to talk to us about their role in fighting the violence of occupation, ending the madness of the destruction of Gaza, and why they as workers and unionists feel compelled to attend the March on Washington for Gaza this Saturday. I could not be more honored to be joined today on The Real News Network Podcast by Emma Mae Weber. Emma is a Milwaukeean and a member of SEIU Local 500, which is the Service Employees International Union Local 500, and she is also a union steward.
We are also joined today by a friend of The Real News and a previous guest on The Real News, Ryan Harvey. Ryan is a Baltimorean, an organizer, and a member of SEIU Local 500 as well. Emma, and Ryan, thank you both so much for joining me today on The Real News Network.
Ryan Harvey: Thanks for having us.
Emma Mae Weber: Yeah. Thank you.
Maximillian Alvarez: Well, I appreciate you guys making time for this. I know you’ve got a lot going on and we are recording this a few days ahead of this big march planned for Washington on Saturday. I want to jump right into it here and I want to go around the table and have y’all introduce yourselves in more depth than I was able to do just now. I want to ask if you could tell our audience a little more about yourselves as rank-and-file workers. What kind of work do you do in your day-to-day life? How have you gotten involved in labor organizing and the labor movement? And also talk to us about how and when you got involved in the current fight for a ceasefire and the longer fight to end the Israeli occupation. And tell us about how those two sides of your lives have converged and come together at this moment.
Ryan Harvey: Yeah. I can start, Max. Thanks for having us again, and shout out to The Real News, shout out to Baltimore. I work for Public Citizen, which is a progressive nonprofit founded by Ralph Nader many decades ago. I work in global trade policy, so pushing for and developing progressive international trade policy and also fighting against neoliberal trade policies wherever they rear their head. I’m not speaking today on behalf of my employer, but I’m also a member of a union. Our staff is unionized through SEIU Local 500 and our union represents a lot of educators and a lot of nonprofit workers, some grad students, and adjunct professors. We represent non-teaching staff at Montgomery County Public Schools, we represent adjunct professors, and grad students at American University, Goucher College, McDaniel, Micah in Baltimore, Howard University, Georgetown, and a bunch of other places. As well as places like Media Matters, Oxfam, Public Citizen, ActionAid, and a number of others. So that’s who we represent.
Before I pass it over Emma for your intro, I’ll say that what we’ve been part of… We’ve formed a little group – I wouldn’t say little, there’s a lot of us – Called SEIU Local 500 Rank and File for Palestine. There’s a bunch of groups like this around the country from different unions who are, I would say, largely part of a generation who have been brought into the labor movement as young people or as young adults and who look not only to our union leadership nationally and locally but also to ourselves and our colleagues as members of unions. We see unions as being a lot bigger than what’s in our contract and what the union means for us as workers. We also think about it as a venue of democratic… What’s the word? Like building democratic pressure.
These are organizations that represent people. They’re made up of members. They’re democratic bodies. And we live in a country and a world that’s sorely lacking in real democracy. We see these venues as things that we should be able to organize within and use as forums through which people can express their opinions but impact policies where something like what’s happening in Gaza with the US role is wildly unpopular. So these are venues through which can be expressed and something can be done about it. So yeah, Emma Mae, what you got?
Emma Mae Weber: Yeah. Wow. I feel like Ryan summed up a lot of what we are working on as a rank-and-file group of SEIU Local 500. I am relatively young. I’m a young worker. I’m a young unionist. I’m 24. And I’m a media researcher. So part of what activated me in all of this is, part of my job is seeing this on TV over and over again. And I know that I’m not the only one. I know most people are seeing this on their screens over and over again. I’m not someone who can separate pieces of myself like worker, organizer, or activist into separate categories. To me, those all makeup who I am.
So the natural progression of that is that my union organizing is going to be representative of the fact that workers should be standing with the people of Gaza because an attack on one of us is an attack on all of us in my eyes. As workers, we stand with the working class people from across the world. I got into organizing union work relatively recently, with my age, but as soon as I was able to join my union, I did and became a union steward and am also doing union organizing here in Milwaukee. Because I’m not East Coast, I am in the Midwest, and we do a lot of organizing work around a ceasefire here in Milwaukee as well, and the calls coming from the labor movement here in the Midwest. So that’s a little background about where my union organizing comes from.
Maximillian Alvarez: Oh, yeah. And I want to circle back to how this rank-and-file group within y’all’s union came together and the conversations that y’all have been having about the group itself and the upcoming demonstration in DC this Saturday. But before we get there, Emma Mae, I wanted to follow up on that point that you made because that’s why I phrased the question the way that I did. But you put the answer so beautifully when you said, I’m a full person. I’ve got these different sides of me that I can’t separate into these neat little boxes like worker, activist, or what have you. And that’s the case for all of us. That’s why I found it so frustrating when I went to the largest pro-Palestine march in US history back in November and the way that mainstream media pundits and even a lot of politicians in DC talk about a demonstration of that size is they talk about the people who make up that massive crowd as if they’re all professional activists. As if we’ve all come out of some Antifa basement or that we sit in an organizing circle and only come out when there’s a demonstration and then we go right back to where we were before.
When I was there talking to people on the ground, I was like, these are regular people. These are UAW union members, these are high school students, these are retired workers, and these are people who have come out to make their voices heard and to show their elected leaders and the world that they stand against the slaughter of Palestinians and the destruction of Gaza. But they’re regular people like us. It’s not as easy to divide the sides of ourselves, workers, organizers, activists, and so on and so forth into those neat little boxes. But I do still think that the ways that we’re trained to think about ourselves put those barriers in place. Unions are a perfect example. People look at unions, they hear what Ryan’s saying about the importance of organized labor, and they may think, yeah, that all sounds great. But they should only be focused on the working conditions in their given shop or the conditions of their members.
Getting involved in politics is beyond the scope of what organized labor should be and workers and union members should concern themselves with as workers and union members. Maybe they can concern themselves with that stuff on the weekends. That’s what I was trying to get at. I want to toss it back to you both and ask if you have any more to say on that front. How we can talk to people out there about how and why our status as people who work for a living laboring in the gut of empire, how that is in fact connected to the struggle for the liberation and health and safety of all working people around the world and an end to war and the destruction of other people.
Ryan Harvey: Yeah. Look, if your yard keeps flooding because the river keeps flooding and you keep cleaning the water out of your yard, at some point, you’re going to ask, why does it keep flooding? Everyone’s yards are getting flooded. No one’s going to be like, hey, hey, whoa. Stay in your lane. You don’t have to do acrobatics to connect these things. The conditions that most people are fighting for in their lives, often through a union, sadly too often not through a union, is for a life of dignity. It’s for enough money to be able to go to the grocery store and not have to check your bank account, to have healthcare, to own a home, to not have your car breakdown become a crisis that could significantly change your life. These are basic things. They involve money, they involve resources, and the thing underlying all of that is the drastically unequal distribution of the wealth that our society generates.
And it’s very, very public right now. The Biden administration was saying, oh, don’t worry. We can definitely afford two wars. At this time when food costs are skyrocketing. Again, there’s no acrobatics involved; It’s directly connected. Our government prioritizes going to war and making sure that arms contractors make huge profits, that their friends in power are protected around the world through the mass killing of civilians if need be, and that the basic needs of people at home and especially around the world go unmet for generation and generation and generation. Then when people are angry about it, we are baffled at how unprecedented it is. Why are all these people so upset? So that’s the context that we’re in. In terms of union members, the language we use matters. I try to avoid using the words like activist when describing groups of people doing something. I try to use words that describe them as regular people. Because I’ll let you all in on a secret: Activists are also regular people. I’ve been in many an Antifa basement in my musical career. I believe that’s my most frequented venue.
Maximillian Alvarez: I think Ryan and I met in an Antifa basement.
Ryan Harvey: And I’ll let you in on another secret: Those people are regular people too. I have friends I grew up with in the punk scene who became engineers, electricians, nurses, doctors, teachers, and folks who work in the food industry, bartenders, whatever. People you interact with every day. Postal workers, etc. But the words we use do matter and the ways we identify do matter. With what we did through our local we were all frustrated about this and trying to think where are ways that we could put pressure on our government to stop supporting Israel’s genocide in Palestine. We have an obligation to do it. So we started looking for different ways and one of those ways was through our union.
We realized that our local hadn’t signed on to the national petition for a ceasefire. Folks at my organization started talking about it. We heard that folks at other organizations were talking about it within our local, and so we all started talking about it together. We sent a big letter signed by over 100 members of our local to our leadership, we did some organizing, and our local signed onto the ceasefire, which is awesome. We’re very appreciative of that. And now we are keeping the ball rolling so we’ve put out a call for a labor contingent to join together this Saturday in DC at the big March. 12:00PM noon at the Navy Memorial on Pennsylvania Avenue right by the rally site. Because want to network with other unions and other rank-and-file caucuses like we’ve built so that we have a stronger voice, especially on the issue of Palestine, but also on other issues that overlap with that. So yeah. Emma Mae?
Emma Mae Weber: Yeah. You stole a lot of what I was going to say right out of my mouth, so that was great. But thinking a lot about the terms, going back to the idea around the words that we use and how we identify ourselves, what you all were talking about before of the way that we get identified, especially with the term activist, is meant to isolate us. And it’s meant to make people who might not be sure if they should join in, if those are their people, because it’s like, oh, it’s this other group doing this thing instead of the people who I can identify with. My fellow neighbors, my coworkers. And that’s what’s so important in showing up as workers, especially with this action, is because we’re not marching as specific titles in our accomplishments or what we stand for with a political identity, but necessarily standing within our identity as workers and as community members. But if they said that a large group of community members was outraged instead of a large group of activists, people would probably be a little bit more interested in what’s going on because maybe they would identify more with us then.
Maximillian Alvarez: That’s very powerfully put and should be a lesson learned to all of us about the words that we’re choosing to describe these things and the ways that we are preventing ourselves from identifying with our fellow human beings and fellow workers because of those categories. We don’t have time to get into a whole large discussion about that, but obviously, that is playing a huge role here in many respects. What are the psychological, emotional, and existential barriers that we have been conditioned to put in place to prevent us from seeing Palestinians murdered in their homes, and their families displaced as anything other than a fellow human being, a neighbor, a fellow worker? Someone who is flesh and blood like you. That is enough. That’s all you need to know. The nationality, religion, gender, and so many of these other categories that have been used through mainstream media coverage, through the political discourse about Israel-Palestine, the cumulative effect is giving people innumerable excuses to not empathize with their fellow man.
For that reason alone we should be intensely critical of the ways we are taught to see others and ourselves, whether we’re talking about labor struggles happening here in our own country or humanitarian crises happening across the world that we ourselves as taxpaying Americans, as working Americans are directly implicated in. As has already been mentioned, the US is endlessly and unconditionally funding, supporting, and abetting this genocidal violence.
I know I only have about 10 minutes left with y’all. Ryan, you started to pick up on this already but I wanted to ask in case there were any additional details that y’all wanted to share about how the rank-and-file group of Local 500 members of which y’all are a part, this contingent that is going to Washington D.C. this Saturday to take part in the March on Washington for Gaza. How did this group come together? What conversations were y’all having as fellow union members about why you needed to take a stand and how this was something that you all wanted to do as a group?
Ryan Harvey: Yeah. It’s nothing out of the ordinary. To keep in line with the conversation we’ve been having, it was a very normal thing. We talked to people and said hey, do you know anybody over at Oxfam? Hey, do you know anybody over at Georgetown? We’re all in the same union. It’s like organizing 101. It’s about relationship building, it’s about connecting with people and finding people who are… I don’t want to say it like the tip of a spear, but people who have a network. So for anyone listening, whether you’re at a workplace that isn’t unionized and you’re thinking about maybe building a union, the same principles. If you’re in a union and you want to organize your colleagues and fellow union members to get a better contract or on something like what we’re doing like a caucus on a particular issue or whatever, same exact fundamental stuff. Talk to folks, get a sense of where people are at, and come up with an idea. Having what we call a “vehicle” in the nonprofit world. Having a vehicle, like a sign-on letter. Something that you’re asking people to do. A first step. An excuse to open that conversation. A survey. Anything like that.
Sometimes we start way too big when we start things and then we inevitably fail. So figure out an entry-level thing, a big umbrella that you can form through which you can have those conversations, then you have them and you are upfront with people about what you’re trying to do. We did that and it worked well and we’re connected now. So you keep the ball rolling, that’s what it is. The end goal of organizing is not to win your campaign, it’s to stay organized as people, wherever that is in the society. The more organized people are, the more power we can exert on those who have power over us, and the more we can then negotiate power, which, let you in on another little secret: that’s democracy. That’s what the country’s supposed to be all about, so it shouldn’t be that controversial.
Emma Mae Weber: Yeah. I’ll say this is the first time Ryan and I have worked together and the first time that I’ve been in contact with different units from across our local in general. And of course, the main focus of what we’re doing right now is about calling for a ceasefire. But because we’re all organizing around that, the other cool thing that’s coming out of this is that we’re building those pathways and those connections with each other that we’re going to be able to continue to lean on as we continue to organize with each other.
I’m in a group here in Milwaukee of a whole bunch of young workers and young unionists, and I spoke about this with them and how when you start a campaign like this, it is about the focus of that campaign but it’s also getting those wheels turning on connection and relationship building. And those are things you can continue to use and fall back on as more things come up, as your contract needs to be strengthened, as you’re facing bigger and bigger issues at your workplaces, so it’s twofold. And it’s been great working with Ryan. It’s been great working and meeting all these other people in my local and it’s all because we realized that something needed to be said from our union, which is great. I am proud of the people I get to call my union siblings.
Ryan Harvey: And it doesn’t need to be a hostile… The thing about being organized is that when you have power, whether it’s a small degree of power like what we might have or a larger degree, you can have conversations with people with different amounts of power, and it’s not as awkward. When we pushed on our union leadership, yeah, there was an uncomfortableness about it because this is my union leadership. I want them to come to bat for me when we’re negotiating a contract, we’re in a relationship, but our perspective is not that we’re trying to be a pain in the ass. We’re trying to strengthen our union. We are members of the union and according to the polls, a lot of people think that what’s happening is wrong and want something done about it. So we have to think of ourselves like we’re helping. We’re trying to help. We’re trying to make our union something that more people want to be part of, to see a reflection of themselves in. And also union colleagues of ours who are Palestinian, who have family in the Middle East, et cetera, who are feeling abandoned, we’re helping make this a place that folks feel comfortable wearing that button and turning out to rallies and whatnot.
So there is an uncomfortableness when you organize, especially when the people that you’re going up against might even be people you respect. They’re friends or whatever. But that’s what organizing to build power does. It allows you to say, look, we can still be cool, but all these people that are with me, they want something in particular and I’m telling you what it is and what are we going to do about it here? So that’s a very important thing for people to understand: You don’t have to hate the people that you’re organizing in proximity to. Sometimes you do, and that’s fine as well if that’s how it is, but we’re trying to act in a democratic fashion and we’re contesting things that are very important in our life. And sometimes those conversations are hard and we have to be prepared for those.
Maximillian Alvarez: Yeah. Both of you very beautifully, powerfully put. And I know I got to let you both go in a few minutes here, so I wanted to build on that and turn it into a final question here. For other workers, unionists, and regular people who are listening to this right now, this is going to be published on Friday, January 12, ahead of the March on Washington for Gaza. So folks are listening to this and considering going to the march itself on Saturday, or if they can’t make this march but are considering taking a more active role in this through their union or beyond, I wanted to ask what your message would be as members of this rank-and-file contingent of Local 500? As members who are taking that step, who are organizing amongst your union siblings to make something happen here, and to use your power as workers and union members to fight for good, to fight for peace and justice, what would your message be to folks out there who are listening to this about why they should do the same?
Even amidst a McCarthyite scary situation that we’ve got here in the US where people are being repressed, people are being fired from their jobs, people are being ostracized within certain social circles. If you could speak directly to folks about that, what would your parting message to them be? And any final thoughts you have on the role that workers and organized labor, in general, can and should be taking in fighting for peace and ending this madness.
Emma Mae Weber: Yeah. This is going to sound very Gen Z of me but don’t let them gaslight you into thinking that you are the only one who cares about a ceasefire, you’re the only one who cares about unionizing, and you’re the only one who wants X, Y, or Z. The biggest thing is identifying the folks who are on the same page as you and making sure you hang onto those connections because the pushback they want – Using the ominous “they” – A lot of folks in power want people who are trying to take back their power or trying to reclaim their worker power to feel as if they’re alone. And the whole point of a union, the whole point of organizing is to rely on the community and the connections we’re building. So you’re not alone. We’re doing this work together and continue to try and remind yourself that you are not the only person who feels the way you do in your workplace.
Ryan Harvey: And in terms of speaking to the situation in Gaza and Palestine, I’ve heard people – Not a lot of people – Saying like, oh, what, so you guys want Trump? It’s like, dude, we may be very angry at Biden right now, we absolutely do not want Donald Trump to be the president again. What we are trying to do is hold this administration and these politicians to the standard that they set out when they said this is going to be the most progressive administration in history. Whatever. It’s like, okay, well then freaking act like it. If your approval rating is tanking and you’re losing young voters and you’re losing Arab and Muslim voters, it’s because of your policies. It’s not because of the rhetoric that we’re using out on the streets. Get out there. If the unions and union leadership are concerned about the political situation, then speak about Gaza and support a ceasefire.
We are trying to put the Democratic Party on the right track on this and not on the wrong track where they are. And I’m not speaking for everyone in my crew or anything but unions are largely supporting Democratic Party candidates. We’re trying to change what the Democratic Party’s position is on this because they’re in power right now in the White House. And there are people who seem to be very aloof to what’s happening on the street and on the ground where the voters are in relation to what’s happening in Gaza. And it’s very serious. The implications domestically and internationally are very serious but they’re nowhere near as serious as the implications of what’s happening on the ground in Gaza. This will have repercussions for a very, very long time. It will involve the US military, it will involve US money, and it will involve a whole bunch of militaries around the world for decades if this isn’t righted soon, in a very honest way. And if you want any proof of that, look at Afghanistan or Iraq for the last 40 years and what the wreckage of these conflicts that go unresolved, that are often tied to US geopolitical interests, and the cowardice of politicians and other power brokers including union leadership in the US who failed to do something effective about it when it needed to happen. It’s a gift that keeps giving and it’s not a good gift.
Maximillian Alvarez: So that is Ryan Harvey. Ryan is a Baltimorean, a longtime political community and labor organizer, and a member of SEIU Local 500. And Emma Mae Weber. Emma is a Milwaukeean and a member of SEIU Local 500, as well as a union steward. They are both members of the rank-and-file labor contingent of SEIU Local 500 members that will be attending the March on Washington for Gaza, which once again will take place in Washington D.C. this Saturday, January 13, 2024, in Freedom Plaza. The march begins at 1:00PM Eastern Time and is scheduled to go until 3:00PM Eastern Time. Ryan, Emma, one more time, can you give our listeners the details about where the labor contingent will be meeting on Saturday as well?
Ryan Harvey: Yeah. It’ll be at 12:00PM noon. It’s going to be at the Navy Memorial. There’s an Archives-Navy Memorial Metro stop right there. It’s on Pennsylvania Avenue. It’s a couple of blocks southeast of the main rally. So we’ll be there at noon and we’ll march up to the rally together around one.
Maximillian Alvarez: Awesome. Well, thank you so much, Ryan and Emma Mae for joining us today on The Real News Network. I really, really appreciate it. And thank you to you all for listening. Thank you for caring. As we say all the time here at The Real News Network, no one can do everything, but everyone can do something and you can do something to stop this. So please, whatever it is, keep doing what you got to do, bring more folks into the fight, and keep supporting the work that we are doing here to cover those who are fighting that good fight. Because we need your support to keep doing this work and to keep bringing y’all more important coverage and conversations like this. So please, before you go, head on over to therealnews.com/donate and become a supporter of our work today. It really makes a difference. For The Real News Network, this is Maximillian Alvarez signing off. Take care of yourselves, take care of each other, and solidarity forever.
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