Less than 15 percent of parole-eligible prisoners serving life sentences in Maryland have been released since 2015. With advocates across the state clamoring for parole reform, Maryland’s legislature has the opportunity to address the state’s soul-crushing parole system this legislative session. Al Brown and Tyrone Little, who each served decades in Maryland’s prison system, join Rattling the Bars to share their firsthand experiences with the parole system.
Studio Production: Cameron Granadino, Adam Coley, David Hebden
Post-Production: Cameron Granadino
Transcript
Mansa Musa:
Welcome to this edition of Rattling the Bars. I’m your host, Mansa Musa. Today I have two of my comrades, I’m going to say, and the reason why I call them comrades is because we come out of the Maryland penitentiary and did an extensive amount of time in that environment together under some of the most dubious audience and oppressive circumstances. Joining me today is Yaya Hakisemaya. Welcome Yaya.
Tyrone Litte:
How you doing, brother? Appreciate it.
Mansa Musa:
And our colleague and our friend Al Brown. Al, how you doing, Al?
Al Brown:
I’m doing fine, sir.
Tyrone Litte:
Hey.
Mansa Musa:
All right. You know I got Yaya in here with me, Al. Say hi to Yaya.
Tyrone Litte:
Hey, Al.
Al Brown:
I hear you.
Tyrone Litte:
What’s going on, man?
Al Brown:
How you doing, Yaya?
Tyrone Litte:
Oh, pretty, pretty good, man. I was hoping to see you in person. It’s been many, many, years, bro.
Al Brown:
Yes. I’m still hanging in.
Tyrone Litte:
Oh, I know that. I understand that. I appreciate that. Yes, sir. Thank you.
Mansa Musa:
So today the purpose and the intent of this show is I call both of these brothers in so we can give a perspective of how the Maryland parole system is. And because the legislative session is coming up, we want to be able to put on the legislative agenda or put in their thought how they should be dealing with the Maryland parole system. More importantly, how they should be dealing with men and women that are eligible for parole that have life sentences and they serve astronomical amount of time. It’s against that backdrop, Al. Al, you just got out right?
Al Brown:
Yes, sir.
Mansa Musa:
How long you been out?
Al Brown:
I just got out September the 7th.
Mansa Musa:
How long was you incarcerated prior to getting out?
Al Brown:
46 years.
Mansa Musa:
You was in 46 years now. When I got out…
Al Brown:
46 years.
Mansa Musa:
Right. I got out December the 5th of 2019, I had 48 years in. Yaya, when you got out?
Tyrone Litte:
I had 38 years.
Mansa Musa:
So we talking about over 100 something years amongst the three of us.
Tyrone Litte:
Absolutely.
Mansa Musa:
Or close to that. Right. So Al, while you was incarcerated, and this is for the benefit of our audience, for me and Yaya we already know, for the benefit of our audience. All right, how old was you when you went in this Maryland penitentiary?
Al Brown:
19, 1977.
Mansa Musa:
You was 19 years old in 1977. All right.
Al Brown:
Yes, sir.
Mansa Musa:
Did you graduate from school prior to coming to the system?
Al Brown:
No, sir. I was in the ninth grade but they said I was reading on a fourth grade reading level.
Mansa Musa:
Right. So in the course of being incarcerated, tell us some of the things that you have accomplished.
Al Brown:
I’ve accomplished my GED, Hagerstown Junior College. I was an aide in the masonry program for years and right before I got out I was working at MCE Petition Shop for 27 years.
Mansa Musa:
Right. But now let’s talk about, because we was up MCTC, the Maryland Correctional Training Center or commonly called the new jail, we was up the new jail together in the masonry capacity. Right? Tell our audience about what your skill level was and how that skill level evolved. It is important for them to know who you were in this 47 or this 40 odd years and before we get to the why you took so long before you get out.
Al Brown:
Yeah, because I left the Pen to go there because I had a masonry background. So they put me in the masonry program and as we did, I graduated, became an aide and we started working there at MCE Construction. So we started building actual buildings on the property and on other properties. We built the petition shop in 1991, we finished that and we built the meat plant over at the old jail in 90… I think that was in ’92. And once we finished that, the end of ’92 I left and went to camp before all the lifers got checked in. And at that time I was working at the Waterloo Police Bureau and once they checked us in, I went back to Hagerstown to MCTC at the masonry program and then we built the classification center there.
Mansa Musa:
All right. So now how many times did you go up for parole before they ultimately gave you parole? Not mentioning the fact that you was on work release and you got sent back. They sent everybody back from work. The governor Glendening sent everybody back under the pretest that life… He wanted to give everybody life sentences without parole. How many times did you go for parole before you was ultimately released?
Al Brown:
12 times.
Mansa Musa:
12 times. And each time they…
Al Brown:
Yes, I went up 12 times.
Mansa Musa:
Each time that they denied you parole, what was their reason?
Al Brown:
They never gave a reason and the thing about that is I went up 12 times for parole. My paperwork went to the governor’s desk’s five times of the 12 and every time I would get denied there was never a reason why they denied me.
Mansa Musa:
And this was in the face of everything you have done. The fact that one, we going back to the fact that you was out on the street on work release going back and forth between institutions. Two, you had a significant amount of time served already and now then you fast-forward they took it out the hands of the governor. How many times did you go up after they took it out the hands of the governor and by me saying that, I mean the governor in the Maryland system, the governor had to sign your papers before you be released?
Al Brown:
Yes. Now after the governor left, I went back up one more time and that was the reason why they released me because they said the governor was out of the process. But I had to do the evaluations and I think I’ve done five evaluations since they opened the program in Patuxent in ’03. And the commissioner let me know that most of my parole hearings were unanimous decision but the governor would always shoot me down.
Mansa Musa:
Yaya.
Al Brown:
And my last infraction…
Mansa Musa:
Go ahead. Go ahead, go ahead, Yaya.
Al Brown:
Yeah, my last infraction was back in 1984 in the penitentiary.
Mansa Musa:
Yeah.
Al Brown:
That was just for having too much money. I had $10 over what I was supposed to have.
Mansa Musa:
Hey look, we know that all those things didn’t take account because I know when I went up when the governor took and denied us parole, I supposed went up in ’92. I didn’t go back up for parole until 2015 and they denied me parole and say don’t get no more infractions. The last infraction I had during that time was in ’92. So we around would make it to… But Yaya, look, talk about how many times did you go up for parole? First of all, you was serving a life sentence?
Tyrone Litte:
Yes, I was serving a life sentence.
Mansa Musa:
How many times you went up for parole during the course of your incarceration?
Tyrone Litte:
I never went up for parole.
Mansa Musa:
Okay.
Tyrone Litte:
During the whole 38 years I was incarcerated. I never went up for parole.
Mansa Musa:
And why was that?
Tyrone Litte:
I didn’t believe in the parole system. I knew from a pattern of behavior of numerous people being constantly denied, as Al had articulated just now, about the governor constantly denying them parole and how they was playing games with sending people to evaluations and here and there and giving them false promises and hopes. I didn’t even subject myself to that. What I did is I subject myself to studying my case, went in a new trial although the other case helped me, I want a new trial in my case and I was released from prison after 38 years. The parole system I think was very harsh. I think the parole system was very discriminatory.
I think that the parole system didn’t take into consideration certain individuals and then in instance where they did take into certain individuals based on that Glendening announcement that life meant life or a lot of the people, although they say that governors wasn’t following that pattern, they were absolutely adopting that pattern. He made that announcement in front of the now Graves, Maryland House Correction and this was a result of all of the violence that had occurred or metastasized in the community based on Rodney and Al and Dahaka and different brothers that’s still in the bounds of the system suffering, were unjustly placed back into the bounds of the system again.
Mansa Musa:
Talk about this, Yaya, in terms of okay so we know that we were successful as a result of Lomax’s advocacy and we give Lomax much respect and regard.
Tyrone Litte:
Absolutely.
Mansa Musa:
Because he fought that fight for us when he got out, when they sent men and women back in, we was up in the new jail, me, Lomax, Gerald Fuller and George Smith, we would always get together in the library. But Lomax was the one person that was constantly lobbying the legislator to take the parole system out the hands of the governor. We’re talk about [inaudible 00:10:17] taken out the hands of the governor and it stands to reason that it should be more expeditious and why isn’t it more expeditious? Because it’s taken out the hands of the governor.
Tyrone Litte:
I think that now that it’s taken out of the hands of the governor considering certain prisoners that are still incarcerated, that was checked into the system under that Rodney Stokes stuff should be really expedited out of the system. These are people man you talking about got 40 almost 50 years.
Mansa Musa:
Yeah, 50 years, talk about 50 years.
Tyrone Litte:
And did everything that you possibly can do. And when you’re talking about penological objectives, there are certain domains that you experience as a result of the crimes you committed and they have done that. Rehabilitation, deterrence, man, all of that, man. Deprivations, they’ve experienced all of that. And so for the parole board not to look at those cases and to expedite those cases, man, I think that what they’re doing in terms of the implementation of the new parole policies which they published and all of that, I think what they’re doing is they’re going by that same old process, man, that same old process. Go to Patuxent, do this, do that, go through here, do that, do that. And that is actually what you would call a delay in release. You got three, four years, you got to wait for that. You got two years that you might not go to your evaluation in Patuxent. Then you got a year, it may come and it may not be the accurate numbers but just the process itself.
Mansa Musa:
Yeah.
Tyrone Litte:
The process itself, man, is delaying injustice even in the light of the fact…
Mansa Musa:
Add on top of that, we talking about people that’s like, because we saying the amount of times we talking about people that’s 60, 70 years old. Al, talk about… Because we spoke about the evaluation, talk about the evaluation, Al. Talk about when they say they send you down Patuxent and the numerous amount of times for eval. What was the purpose of the evaluation, what was they looking for when they sent you repeatedly at there? Because you didn’t do nothing, the time it took you send the first time and the time they send you the second time and third, you didn’t do nothing different than you was doing before, was you?
Al Brown:
No. If anything my record was even better.
Mansa Musa:
So what was the purpose of evaluation?
Al Brown:
The purpose of evaluation, they said it’s part of your parole and then they tell you that the evaluation is only good for three years if the three years time run up, you have to go back. I always looked at it as just a stall tactic.
Mansa Musa:
Right.
Al Brown:
It’s like they put a piece of sugar out in front of you where it gives a guy hope. When you go off for parole, “Okay, we’re going not make a decision until after your evaluation”, and you have to wait and the waiting list right now is 18 months anywhere to three years.
Mansa Musa:
Come on, man.
Al Brown:
Once you go down there, once you go there they only see you one day. You sit down at usually three months, you sit there, you only see the people one day for three hours and then they send you back and it’s almost like you wait a year before the decision actually come back.
Mansa Musa:
That’s crazy.
Al Brown:
And I always looked at it as just a stall tactic to give you hope for a minute and after about three years then went by and they deny you and then it’s like you’re starting all over again.
Tyrone Litte:
Let me…
Mansa Musa:
Yaya, talk about impact.
Tyrone Litte:
Yeah. Let me add to what he’s saying. The reason that they do those evaluations is because, man, it is undeniable that when you in that type of environment inundated with all types of violence and foolishness and stuff that you’re not going to be psychologically affected by it to some degree. And so these different domains or actions that they’re dealing with to evaluate that, man, you got some guys that are subjected to those type of things and you got some guys that have the strong and the power and the will to do positive things in the institution that don’t succumb to that. We’re living examples of it.
And so what Al is saying, to piggyback off what he’s saying, here you got a man that did everything, everything that you possibly can do and being out there in the community that went through these evaluations five times and still have to go through the same process before he was ultimately released. So the brothers that’s still caught up in the system, they don’t have to go through that same arduous process. And what we’re appealing and what we are trying to say is that the parole board need to be more expeditious in evaluating those circumstances because they done already met all penological domains. They done already satisfied penological domain and to continuously keep them incarcerated going through this arduous, tedious process to say, “Okay we are going to release them.” That’s injustice, man.
Mansa Musa:
It is injustice.
Tyrone Litte:
It’s injustice.
Mansa Musa:
See, I don’t claim to be or have no impeccable record while I was incarcerated. I know I never was going to make parole. That just was me. Right. But my cell buddy, Hercules Williams, he was working in pre-release. Thomas Gaither, he was working in pre-release. Walter Lomax was working in pre-release. They brought back 120 something people that was working in pre-release.
Tyrone Litte:
Absolutely.
Mansa Musa:
And then you turn around and say… And this is really the insanity and dehumanization of it is, these men was working in pre-release for three, four and five years prior to Glendening saying what he said and never was given parole. And the evaluation wasn’t even in the process back then, they wasn’t even looking at that. And a lot of these men had got family leave, was going out on family leave, having what they call weekends. And yet they turned around when they bring them back in they say, “Oh yeah. Well, look you going to have to stay another year. We’re going to give you a year return.” First they was giving a year set-off. Hey Al, when they was giving you a set-off, what was your set-off? What was your set-off normally?
Al Brown:
Mines was a year. My first one I went up for, yeah, my first one was a three year and they told me to do everything that they wanted me to do and that’s when I got my GED, my college program and in ’92 they sent me to camp. And after we were checked in they would tell me, “We going to give you a year hit and hopefully if they let everybody back to camp we’ll call you right back up.”
Mansa Musa:
Yes. It occurred again. Yeah.
Al Brown:
Yes. And that went on until Glendening came out in ’94 and said it because I had just went up the month before that and was recommended for parole to the governor’s desk. But when Glendening came out and said that, they called me back up the following month and said, “The governor said don’t send any paperwork to his desk desk so we’re going to give you a four year re-hear and hopefully he’ll be out of office.”
Mansa Musa:
And you know what? Before I go to you, Yaya.
Tyrone Litte:
Political.
Mansa Musa:
Before I go… Yeah, that’s what I’m ready to say before I go to you, Yaya. And then he had the audacity, Glendening, had the audacity after he did that to come back out when we mobilized and was getting position for that bill and Lomax was able to get him to recant that. He had the audacity to say, “I was wrong” but you didn’t say, “I was wrong and that you should send all these men back.” Come on, Yaya.
Tyrone Litte:
Yeah. We got to look at the greatness that Lomax developed in that process. But it’s also some other things that I don’t think that they really take into consideration concerning even after they parole lifers come back into the community. For example, all right, so parolees with Post Incarceration Syndrome face a significant uphill battle once they return to society as noted earlier, find a job, housing can be extremely difficulty as in all of these other things. We faced with a lot of health problems.
Mansa Musa:
That’s right.
Tyrone Litte:
And there’s a lot of guys that’s still in the system that’s faced with health problems and their dream and their hope is to least get some liberation out here in the community. But even when they come out here, there’s so many stigmatizations that follow people that release after long incarcerations. But look at the ratio in terms of recidivism.
Mansa Musa:
Right. Come on.
Tyrone Litte:
This population has produced magnificent things.
Mansa Musa:
Talk about that. We want to talk about that.
Tyrone Litte:
We in good positions.
Mansa Musa:
We want you talk about that though and Al’s going to be another example of the continuum of that. The reason why I want you to talk about that is because every time it came up for us to get out, they had this drumbeat, this hysteria, drumbeat. Rapists, murderers, killers coming out. All right, so now we are geriatric, we are more match rated. Why are they not talking about all the success of the things that we’re doing there and that this population can be successful in that regard?
Tyrone Litte:
Because when you look at research, when I was in the master’s program, because I came out and I went to the master’s program currently at Morgan, interdisciplinary human health and human sciences, PhD. And when you look at the population of prison, when I did my research paper on that, I was saying that education improves the behavior of prisoners.
Mansa Musa:
Yeah, yeah.
Tyrone Litte:
So when I took it to the professor, he said, “Well, we need cases in the 2000s” and something I said, “Well you approved my topic and that’s what I’m going to do my topic on.” And what I learned, what I learned is that prison population is a neglected population, man. It is, as far as studies are concerned, as far as the systemic problems that families loved ones, children face, even in terms of the revolving door of recidivism, releasing people back into the community with no job opportunities, no housing, no employment. And if they don’t have family that’s actually there to help them, they’d be homeless. Those are things that are not taken into consideration even when you parole individuals. So they make you have a home plan, they make families step up. But what about the trauma that the families experience? What about the economic factors in all of this and none of that’s taken into consideration. So what I’m saying in so many words is that it is a population that’s neglected. It’s a population that still operate by antiquated beliefs. Going all the way back to the ’30s.
Mansa Musa:
Yeah, Draconian.
Tyrone Litte:
You basically do the crime, you do the time, they don’t care if you die in the system. They don’t care if you got all types of disease. They don’t care what type of condition that you in because they still operating by that old philosophy, man. And so the example, to answer your question, they don’t study this population. I did a research paper with Dr. Hutchins that’s published in a psychological journal and can be looked at and the population of older men, it’s already shown that they are less receptive to committing crimes as opposed to young people that keep on going back and forth through the revolving door. The population of men we talking about are in their 60s where their maturity levels, what they’ve done in the prison system is outstanding. What they were doing before they got back, checked into the prison system was outstanding. And the population is out here now that come from that, you and I and the various other brothers that’s out here that’s doing remarkable things in the community from an academic and experiential base. Come on, man.
Mansa Musa:
I know. And you know what? And I like what you said about the education because before they took the Pell grant out, we was in the Pen and we was going copping and we would go in the dining room, remember we had to go in the dining room before we go ahead and get plates? When we got in the dining room, everybody was in huddles talking about either midterms or somebody was tutoring somebody on they couldn’t comprehend the subject matter. But the Maryland penitentiary population, it became a university. That’s the population that Eddie would, to say your own words, came out of, that was the population that you came out. That was a population that I came out that was a population where Saleem Alameen mean came out where people was going out on speaking engagements. Hey Al, what you doing now since you been out? What you doing there other than eating a whole lot of chicken?
Al Brown:
Hey, man, I’m trying to get on with life because right now because I had a big family support and that’s one thing that I was blessed with because I had organizations, even politicians, the news media, they went to bat for me. They did stories on my case while I was in there. My family went to [inaudible 00:24:28] that was doing the legislator with the ‘Free Al Brown’ shirts on.
Mansa Musa:
That’s right. That’s right.
Al Brown:
Even the day that I walked out, the media was outside the jail in Jessup the news media was and they had the ‘Al Brown was free’ shirts on. But since I’ve been out, I got my health, got a physical because I never had a physical while I was in prison because you know the way the system is, I didn’t trust.
Mansa Musa:
That’s right.
Al Brown:
Yeah. So I got that. I got my driver’s license last week.
Mansa Musa:
Okay, you ain’t ran into nothing yet?
Al Brown:
No. Matter of fact, I’m about to buy a car this weekend…
Tyrone Litte:
You on the road, man.
Al Brown:
And thinking about buying a truck the following week.
Tyrone Litte:
We going to buy a truck the following week.
Mansa Musa:
Hey, Al. Plus, look, talk about… Hey, but I also know that you working on Junior’s case, right? Or trying to help his sister and for the benefit of our audience, Junior’s another individual that’s been locked up a significant amount of time doing impeccable things in the institution. And the reason why they saying that he can’t get paroled is because he has a learning disability. He has a learning disability that they saying that until he gets his GED that they not going to let him, that he can’t come on. But he has a learning disability, instead of them saying let’s find out what his learning disability is and craft something around that to give him some help. They holding up. What’s his status, Al?
Al Brown:
Right now Junior, matter of fact, his sister contacted my family once I got out, once they seen the story on the news and they said his case is just like mine. I’m from Calvert County, he is from Charles County and Junior was 19 when he went in. He’s 63 now. Excellent, never had a ticket since he’s been locked up. But the thing of it is, and he’s been running MCE, the tag shop, for about the last 27, 30 years.
Mansa Musa:
Yeah. I was in there, man.
Al Brown:
No infractions and he went up for parole. They gave him a two-year re-hear because they say he doesn’t have a GED and after us researching, he sent paperwork out where he was in school but they put him out of school because they say he couldn’t get his GED but he’s running the shop. And his sister’s about the only one that still left and she needs help and a lot of folks didn’t have the type of help that I had, that I had a family group and politicians that was fighting hard for me. So my thing is a lot of those guys need help. And if anything with Junior’s case is he’s been, like I said, it’s been 43 years. If anything parole him and make part of his parole that he gets his GED.
Mansa Musa:
Yeah, Yaya.
Tyrone Litte:
But Al, to add to what you’re saying, man, you’d be surprised how many individuals are borderline retarded in the system right now. Right now I’m reading the case of a brother, I’m not going to mention the name and he borderline mental retarded. I went in front of parole board for Derrick White just recently because Eli called me and asked me to go there and testify for him to try to get the parole board to give him a hearing because they denied him about 9 to 10 years ago, no parole.
Mansa Musa:
Right, right, right, right. I remember because we was in the system.
Tyrone Litte:
Yeah. So we fighting, trying to just get him a parole hearing and this man, he went in the system, like Al was just saying, when he was 19 years old for a bicycle, the circumstances. So I’m saying his mindset now, he done evolved into controlling these departments like that recreation department, building programs and everything. He done did everything he possibly can do, but he’s still in the system.
Mansa Musa:
And you know what? As we close out, Al, you gone have the last word, but I want to say something. I’m going to tell our audience something about you. Al was like Ronnie Lott on that football field, Al was breaking people up on that football field. Hey, all that aggression, all that stuff that people did to you, whoever was in front of you with that ball. You took it out and moved that ball, Al. Thank God that you got old and you can’t play football no more like that. But you got the last word on this, Al. What you want to tell our audience, and I definitely love you, bro. Appreciate you coming in. What you want to tell our audience, bro?
Al Brown:
My thing is we made it, us three, we made it. But there’s so many people back there that we left behind that deserve the same opportunity we had. A lot of them didn’t have the knowledge of the law, a lot of them don’t have the family members or the people that’s willing to fight for them as we had. And my thing is I don’t want to leave them guys behind because I want them to enjoy the same thing I’m enjoying now.
Mansa Musa:
That’s right. Okay. Yaya, Doctor. We’ll be calling Yaya a doctor in a couple more years. Dr. Yaya.
Tyrone Litte:
And I tell you, my brain hurting too. I’ll be glad when that process comes up.
Mansa Musa:
Yaya, what you got to say?
Tyrone Litte:
No, I think man, it’s much more the need to be said about this. I know we only had a certain amount of time to do it, but I agree with everything that was said. I think that Al gave a very good example of what people that’s trying to get out have to go through to get out, man. And it’s appalling. Here you got people that did everything that you possibly can do and they’re still being stigmatized for their crimes. They’re still being judged and looked at as if they hadn’t grown and developed and they got these guys that took advantage of education, they took advantage of all the programs, they’re making remarkable strides behind the door. And these are the same people that came out to the community because like you said, if the hunger [inaudible 00:30:46] didn’t occur, the guys that’s doing remarkable things in the community right now wouldn’t have been able to do that.
They’d have still been there, they’d still be in the prison system doing the things that we were doing behind the wall. So these are guys made to fit in that classification that deserve, like Al said, the same opportunities. But the parole board has taken through such an arduous, strenuous, unnecessary process in a lot of cases where these guys may be subject to dying there, man, maybe because of the age, because some of them have health issues. Many of the guys coming out in society today that was in there, they dying away.
Mansa Musa:
They’re dying right here. Yeah.
Tyrone Litte:
They’re dying away. Look at Raul, look at Monye, look at these guys coming out, man, with Hep C and all these other diagnosed things that’s at stage fours where they just die. So that’s what I got to say.
Mansa Musa:
And you know what? There you have it. The Real News, when we rattling the bars, then we shaking that south wing, we shaking the bars on south wing, see down, throwing them lock up sales, right? And we want our audience to know that when we talking about this subject matter, we saying that the legislative session is coming into existence, back into existence in January. We’re saying the money that you’re going to invest in building more prisons or adding more prisons invest that money into the men and women that are on their way out. Invest that money into making sure that the parole will be more expeditious in giving these people relief quick because they dying a death of a thousand cuts as they continue. We ask you to continue to support Rattling the Bars and continue to support The Real News. And we thank you. Thank you, Al. Thank you, Yaya.
Tyrone Litte:
Thank you, man.
Al Brown:
Thank you.
Tyrone Litte:
Bro…
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