The June 2 election of Claudia Sheinbaum made history for two reasons: Sheinbaum will be Mexico’s first woman president ever, and the progressive Morena party will now control the executive and both houses of the national legislature. Morena’s rise to power has brought an enormous historical shift to Mexico, which for more than a century prior was dominated by the conservative parties of the PRI and PAN. Elected on a strong anti-neoliberal platform, outgoing President Andrés Manuel López Obrador set the nationalization of key industries and poverty alleviation as key goals of his administration. Sheinbaum has now been tapped to build upon his legacy and advance the political project of Morena, which seeks to achieve a “Fourth Transformation” of Mexican society. But not all on Mexico’s left are satisfied with Morena, AMLO, or Sheinbaum, pointing out broken promises or perceived failures, and even betrayals, on questions of the environment, Indigenous rights, violence against women, and protection for migrants. Journalists Tamara Pearson and José Luis Granados Ceja join The Marc Steiner Show for a debate on Morena’s legacy and future.
Studio Production: Cameron Granadino
Post-Production: Alina Nehlich
Transcript
The following is a rushed transcript and may contain errors. A proofread version will be made available as soon as possible.
Marc Steiner:
Welcome to the Marc Steiner Show here on The Real News. I’m Mark Steiner. It’s great to have you all with us. Mexico and the United States have always been intertwined in this kind of, as I put it, sometimes this weird dialectical dance that’s often been confrontational and exploitative. Immigration issues are just the tip of the latest issues that we face. Mexico just elected Claudia Sheinbaum, a leftist environmental scientist who was mayor of Mexico City, the first woman president of Mexico, and her coalition won overwhelmingly. When it first happened, I got really excited. I saw the results, then I started reading more and I had questions. What does it all mean?
Expectations are high, but US companies are still looting the country. Criminal gangs are rampant. Over 100,000 people have disappeared. US companies continue to exploit Mexico. And as one of our guests pointed out in an article, most are duty and tariff free and auto workers in Mexico are paid $450 a month while here in the U.S, they’re paid $6,400 a month. What can Schein do? Can she take on the gangs, poverty, and confront the control of American companies? The left won. Did the people win? Can they turn Mexico around?
Our guests today both have written about this when covering this intensely, Tamara Pearson joins us. She’s an Australian-Mexican journalist who has been on Real News before and produce a weekly global south newsletter called Excluded Headlines. And Tamara, welcome. Good to have you with us.
Tamara Pearson:
Hey, thank you so much.
Marc Steiner:
And Tamara joins us from Pueblo and José Luis Granados Ceja is a writer, photojournalist based in Mexico City. He used to work for TeleSUR, currently works as a freelance journalist and covers political issues, social change issues, labor, and more in Latin America. And Jose, welcome.
José Luis Granados Ceja:
Really happy to be here.
Marc Steiner:
And good to have you both. So I was really looking forward to this program. When I was watching the election take place in Mexico, I really was excited when she won because it felt like it could be change. But then I realized how complex that is in a country like Mexico, years and years of right-wing control. The last President of Mexico didn’t make the changes, people fought, and now Sheinbaum is in control, or she’s in charge of Mexico. So let me start with you Tamara and Jose, jump in. Break that down for us. What are we witnessing here from Mexico right at this moment with Sheinbaum as president?
Tamara Pearson:
It’s so complicated. I’m not even sure where to start. I think what we have is we had around a century of pre-Pan rule. They’re the two conservative neoliberal parties in Mexico. And then AMLO was elected in 2018, with his party Morena. And a lot of people really hoped that that would signal some change. The discourse that AMLO uses is very left-wing. He criticizes neoliberalism, he expresses a lot of solidarity with other left-wing governments in Latin America. And he made a lot of promises that sounded really good. So there was a lot of hope, I think. Six years later, a few of those positive changes have been somewhat implemented, but a lot of the promises haven’t been kept both at the national and at the local and state levels. And I think there’s a lot of disillusionment. There’s a lot of frustration. And I guess with Sheinbaum being elected now as another Morena candidate, it’s difficult to know now what the promises that she’s made, if she’s actually going to follow through with them. And more importantly, her government is going to follow through with them because it’s not just up to her.
José Luis Granados Ceja:
So I’m going to jump in here and say that I have a different take.
Marc Steiner:
Yeah.
José Luis Granados Ceja:
I think Lopez Obrador has been an extraordinary president for Mexico. I think he has very much followed through on so many of the things that the population was expecting. I think precisely the result on Sunday where there was an overwhelming mandate renewed for Morena under the leadership of Claudia Sheinbaum speaks to the fact that the population does believe in this project, does back what he’s been doing. And I think there’s a lot of things we could talk about in terms of what the impact has been. And we can look at the numbers. For example, 5 million people being lifted out of poverty, a huge, huge increase in a minimum wage, over a hundred percent. We’ve seen a redistribution of the country’s resource wealth into social programs, reinvestment in the country’s infrastructure and public services.
And the thing that I think really highlights for me is that Lopez Obrador, Morena inaugurated a new regime in Mexico. And Tamara is absolutely right, Mexico was dominated by the PRI and the PAN for a hundred years. And the PRI, it’s an interesting beast of a political party because there were moments in its history where it was very progressive under Lazaro Cardenas in the ’30s, huge redistribution of land to the peasants, but obviously, took a neoliberal turn starting in basically in the ’80s, and then really consolidating and becoming what here in Mexico became the PRI And, so the PRI and the PAN ruling together around the same neoliberal ideology. And while there’s obviously much more to go in terms of the transformation of this country, I think it would, at least in my opinion, be safe to say that under Lopez Obrador, there was very much a break with that and the end of neoliberalism as we know it in Mexico.
I was thinking about this interview and how I would want to address it. Lopez Obrador is most certainly neoliberal, but he’s not anti-capital. And so it’d be interesting to see with this mandate, she didn’t just win, she won by a landslide. And in fact, one of the things that the Morena party was talking about ahead of the election was, are we able going to get a super majority so that we can engage in deeper transformations? Can we finally be able to do constitutional reforms without having to negotiate with the opposition parties? And the voters gave them that mandate, and I think they did it with that intention. Voters didn’t just go out and vote reluctantly for Morena. I think it was an enthusiastic vote saying, we want to deliver a strong mandate so that can go for the deeper transformations that this country desperately needs.
And yes, I would agree, didn’t happen to the degree that some of us want them to, but one of the ways that I’ve been framing it is that I believe in the communalization of life. I believe in confronting the interests of capital and the owners of capital. I think beyond adversaries, there are class enemies, but I think we’re way closer to that with Claudia Sheinbaum and the mandate that they won than we were before the election.
Marc Steiner:
So Tamara, I get a sense you’re not a [inaudible 00:06:30] about this victory.
Tamara Pearson:
No. I voted for Claudia. I think that it’s very clear to me that she is a better option than the the ultra conservative, right-wing parties. And I think a lot of people see that, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that they are excited and supportive of Morena. And I think it’s worth pointing out as well that 40% of people didn’t actually vote. And of the people who did vote, 2 million people [inaudible 00:07:03] and a lot of people voted instead for non-registered candidates. I think the number, I can’t remember, it was something like 40,000 who voted for non-registered candidates. And of course, we don’t know who those are, but there was a massive campaign by the mothers and parents of disappeared people to vote for disappeared people instead of to vote for the politicians who have done absolutely nothing or next to nothing about the fact that there’s 116,000 disappeared people. And there’s around 450,000 people who have been killed since the so-called war on drugs began in 2006.
So a lot of people were, in my case, I voted for Claudia at the national level. But here in Puebla, I did not vote for anybody because our candidates here in Puebla for governor and our city mayor, they used to be in the PRI. They are both business people who have spent their entire career representing business interests. And here in Puebla, our water is privatized. It was privatized by a PAN government or the PRI, I can’t remember which one. And Morena said that they would deprivatize our water and they never did, and they had six years to do that. And that is a absolutely fundamental issue for us. The minimum wage increases don’t mean so much because the majority of people are informal workers and don’t benefit from that. People here are working seven days a week, we’re absolutely exhausted. And on top of that, we’re going through a heat wave that has lasted roughly six weeks and we can’t shower because we don’t have water.
And the candidates from Morena who are representing us in Puebla state and city are business people have spent their career advocating for big business at the expense of the environment and for people. And both of them promised to deprivatize the water just as Morena did six years ago. But I’m completely, absolutely confident that they will not do that. And so it’s a nuanced situation. On Sunday, we had six different ballot papers and there’s a lot of nuance and complexity to consider. I voted for Claudia because she’s better than Galvez. But I wrote deprivatize the water on my Puebla ballots because there’s absolutely no point in voting for any of the parties. And at the parliamentary level, I wrote the names of disappeared people. It’s great that Morena has increased the pension, I think that’s fantastic, but there is so much that hasn’t been done. And the most important thing that they haven’t done is they haven’t listened to the movements.
Not only do they not listen to the millions of women who are marching every day on March eight and on other dates around the year, they don’t listen to the Ayotzinapa parents, the parents of the 43 student teachers who were most likely killed, but we still don’t know for sure. They aren’t listening to the migrants and the migrant movements and the representatives who are campaigning for migrant rights. They’re not listening to indigenous people who were defending their land, who were absolutely against the Maya Train project, which Morena spent a bunch of resources, together with European companies, building this train line that went straight through protected areas in the south of Mexico. So it had a massive environmental impact. It was against what the local indigenous people wanted.
And so I think it’s absolutely important to acknowledge the positive things that have happened, but to me they’re the sorts of things that a lot of governments that are sort of vaguely left do and then not a massive break in the system and the underlying causes and the structural issues that we’re facing here in Mexico.
Marc Steiner:
So it seems to, all the reading I’ve been doing and listening to the two of you and reading with both have written, that people voted for Sheinbaum as you two did the same way some people might vote for Biden in this election in the United States because the alternative is so horrendously worse.
Tamara Pearson:
Exactly.
José Luis Granados Ceja:
I would disagree with that. I think I would have a very different conception in terms of it.
Marc Steiner:
All right, go ahead. I’ll stop.
José Luis Granados Ceja:
I think Tamara’s right. She certainly pointed to some of the very glaring contradictions that do exist within this Morena-led project. I don’t dispute any of the things that she mentions. It’s true. Those are many of the things that are frustrating as somebody who identifies on the left, the [foreign language 00:11:48], as we call it here, where people from old parties jump into the, they want to join the winning team, so they join Morena. But are they really going to subscribe to the party’s program? I think what we have to look at is who was on the ballot. So it wasn’t the former governor of Puebla on the ballot, it was the former governor of Mexico City. And in fact, here in Mexico City, the candidate for a Jefa de Gobierno, as we call it here, it was this incredible grassroots leader from Iztapalapa who really represents, I think, in some ways the best of the party in the same way that Claudia does. I think the comparison to Biden I think is unfair. I think there are certainly people who may be reluctantly did, oh, this is the better of the two bad options.
But I think looking at the numbers, looking at the turnout, which is pretty much in line with most Mexican elections at the federal level, shows that there is enthusiasm for it. There is a willingness from the population to deliver that mandate, to give them the legislative tools to be able to go further and hopefully address these issues that Tamara correctly points to. I think particularly around the issue of migration, for example. Hopefully we can have a shift in policy there. But of course, there is the elephant in the room, which is the US relationship, which I think is something that cannot be ignored when we’re talking about Mexico.
Mexico shares a very long border and very much of its dynamics are influenced by US foreign policy towards Mexico, and Latin America more broadly. But I think the fact that the results were what they were on Sunday actually gives a lot more room to operate, a lot more ability to engage in those deeper transformations. Claudia Sheinbaum is a red diaper baby. She was raised by communist parents. She cut her teeth in politics in the student movement. She was the environment secretary under Lopez Obrador. And so she has an incredible resume. She actually was part of the IPCC panel that won a Nobel Prize. And in fact, one of the things that she’s been criticized on is will she be able to exit the shadow of Lopez Obrador? Will she have her own program?
To that I say, one, they’re part of a movement, Morena represents something. It is a parliamentary expression of a progressive political program that is seeking to do away with neoliberalism and the very close relationship that existed in this country between political and economic power. And I think we have seen a pretty important shift in that. But on the issue of climate change, which is something that we’ve been talking about here with the heat and all of that, I think that’s one of the places where we’ll see Claudia take a different approach than Lopez Obrador and really invest in renewable energies and address this in a serious way and do it from a progressive point of view, not incentivizing private companies like they tried to do during the neoliberal regime in Mexico, but actually state-led initiatives telling the state-owned utility building infrastructure by the state so that they can be the ones to actually engage in that transformation and be able to do it. I have a lot of faith in that.
Marc Steiner:
Tamara, what’s your response to that?
Tamara Pearson:
Yeah, I think there’s a few different things. I’ve seen a lot in the mainstream English media and a lot of activists overseas who want to feel hopeful because a woman has been elected president of Mexico and a climate scientist. And I can understand that need for hope, I certainly need it myself. And I think that there is a reason to celebrate, but I think that we have to keep that in proportion. Absolutely, it puts the climate more at the forefront of the agenda. And for women, it is important to have women visible as experts and as leaders, but I think it’s many, many times more important what that party’s record is, what they’re actually going to do beyond what they say that they’re going to do. And in terms of Sheinbaum, we have yet to see that, and we can only sort of guess. But she, as Jose Luis mentioned, she was head of government in Mexico City, and we can look at what she’s done as head of government in Mexico City.
And for example, there was an occupation of the human rights building in Mexico City by women after they had spent years and years trying to get justice in cases of abuse, rape, and femicide. And having gotten nowhere, and out of extreme frustration, they took over this building and occupied it for a few months. There were a lot of internal issues with that particular action, but the Mexico City government sent the police on that protest and evacuated and arrested two of the women who were incarcerated for 10 months. When women have marched again, the marches of women have been massive here. The Morena government has dismissed those marches and accused us of being members of the opposition trying to derail his agenda, AMLO’s agenda. Sheinbaum expressed cautious support and that sort of support is appreciated, but it was so cautious that it was almost counterproductive.
She said that protestors shouldn’t be violent. And she said that a few times. And I think that sort of attitude is extremely concerning because women have been constantly criminalized. We were criminalized here in Puebla on March 8th this year. The state government police launched tear gas and water cannons at us and boarded the buildings up with these massive metal fences as though we are the threat. And there’s a little bit of graffiti, and this is what is used to sort of dehumanize or delegitimize the feminist movement and to label us as violent. And Claudia has been participating in that by also saying that we shouldn’t be violent and that’s not what we need. We need to be listened to, and we need people in positions of power. Whether they’re men or women or non-binary, we need those people to, instead of criticizing the women’s movements to criticize rapists and the people who are killing us and the people in the system who are ensuring that there is complete impunity for crimes against women, that’s what needs to be criticized and I don’t see that happening, and I think that a serious stand needs to be taken against that.
Claudia also has a terrible record in Mexico City for facilitating real estate. She tried to change a law in Mexico City so that, I forget what exactly the law is called, to get rid of the requirement for consulting locals before construction can be made. And she had a plan of, I’m translating it to English, plan of territory reordering, which was for all of Mexico City. And that the goal of that plan was to make it easier for real estate companies to do what they want to do at the expense of the environment and at the expense of the indigenous communities in Mexico City and also locals and poorer classes who are having to pay higher and higher rents.
And there are a few positive things that she did as well, for example, the plastics ban. I think that is vaguely positive. And I’ll end with this particular example. In Mexico City and around Mexico, plastic bags are a banned to different extents depending on the state. And Mexico City has banned plastic bags, and I think that is a little bit positive, just like a lot of what Morena has done, it’s a little bit positive. But the Mexico City government is spending more on rubbish dumps to get rid of rubbish and plastics, which continue to be produced than it is spending on human rights, on all of the different human rights institutions that there are in Mexico City.
So what Morena should have done in that instance is clamped down on the companies that are producing rubbish. But instead of doing that, they banned plastics, which had a massive impact on informal workers who sell tacos and whatever in the street. They did not get to the heart of the issue, which is the huge corporations producing drinks in plastic bottles and that sort of thing, which is the actual heart of the issue.
José Luis Granados Ceja:
So I’m wondering if I could jump in there just because I have some disagreements with the characterizations there. And I certainly agree. First and foremost, I want to say that. I think the issues that Tamara mentioned, for example, the prevailing impunity needs to be addressed. I think that’s not something would ever disagree with. But for example, I accompany social movements, I think it’s important that we pay attention to their demands. I think they’re indispensable for any serious project that talks about political change, but they’re not beyond reproach. For example, this occupation that Tamara is mentioning, that statement she made about that there were some internal issues. It’s doing some really heavy lifting there. This was a situation that even the mothers who originally did the occupation walked away from because of the degradation of the conditions inside of that space became very dangerous. It became one that was mostly associated with drugs and alcohol. And that’s not me saying that, that’s the same people who were originally involved with the movement making accusations about how bad the conditions had gotten inside of that space.
Now, I’m not saying that that means that their criticism isn’t correct. Obviously, like I said, impunity needs to be challenged, especially when it comes to violence against women. And I think some of the approach, particularly by Lopez Obrador, he was a man of his generation and had some very backwards attitudes when it came to the feminist movement, should have rectified. But the point is that there are a lot of issues even within these social movements that I think we shouldn’t be so quick to automatically say that their criticisms are correct. There was an infiltration by opposition forces of the movement in the central borough here in Mexico City. The candidate for the opposition, the right-wing opposition was a very visible woman who identifies as a feminist, but uses that to advance her political agenda.
So there’s some issues I think when it comes to the characterization, but also Claudia Sheinbaum, when she was mayor, also did a lot of things. I mean, it sounds ridiculous, but it took Claudia Sheinbaum becoming mayor of Mexico City to change the uniform policy in the public schools here. Women and girls used to be forced to have to wear skirts, and now she came in and said change. She developed special prosecutors to deal with the issue based at every one of the Fiscalias, the actual attorney’s general’s offices here in Mexico City. Even just things like putting up lights so that the areas where women walk are well-lit and provides a little bit of security. I know that these are just a little bit, but it shows that there is actually an interest and commitment there to actually addressing these issues. And I think that somebody from her background with her experience and her trajectory is someone who I think we would be safe taking some comfort in knowing that the woman in the highest office of the land is going to do a better job of addressing this urgent issue in which I totally agree with the mayor on.
Marc Steiner:
So in the time we have left here, I really kind want to quickly examine where you think this takes Mexico. If you look at, under Obrador, murders just went through the roof. And as somebody described in one of your articles as a criminal insurgency, just kind of rampant, that the exploitation by American companies still exists in Mexico, but workers voted for Sheinbaum because they saw hope in what might happen. So the question becomes, what do you think will happen? What is this victory for Morena and Sheinbaum mean in the long run? Is it going to create some fundamental change or is it still kind of trapped, that Obrador seemed to be trapped in? What will change other than people’s excitement about Sheinbaum?
José Luis Granados Ceja:
Sheinbaum always talked about building the second floor of the transformation, which I think should be read as a deepening of the process, a deepening of the best of what we saw from the Lopez Obrador government. That’s certainly my expectation. It’s the expectation of the rank and file. I’m close with some of the people who are involved with the National Formation Institute of the Party, and they too are very, very excited about the possibility of actually being able to, because there’s basically no barriers now. There were a lot of external forces that constrained much of what Moreno was able to do, and that doesn’t absolve them of the criticism of things that they did without, aside from the fact that there were restraints. For example, the judicial branch of government here in Mexico is thoroughly rotten, and it’s actually openly allied with the opposition. The president of the Supreme Court held a secret meaning with the leaders of the opposition here.
The Supreme Court has overturned a number of legislative laws that were approved by a majority of the representatives of the Mexican population. And so I think now they have the opportunity with the super majority to actually address that. Now, if they don’t do it, then I think we need to redouble our criticisms, and criticisms would actually probably come from the party itself. There is a huge expectation from the population, but also the rank and file members of the party to say, we gave you this mandate. You have the ability. There’s no excuses. And so it’s time for you to do that. The only other thing I would say is also obviously, like I mentioned before, the US relationship. The violence that happens in Mexico happens as a result of the demand for illicit substances coming from the US and that’s not something that Mexico can directly intervene on.
There’s a lot of diplomatic discussions that can happen. But I think when it comes to that, there’s a lot of restraints there, which is also why I’ve been trying to do as much media opportunities with others. I did a speaking tour in the United States inviting the left inside of the United States to also engage with these issues and press to develop, to strengthen their own anti-imperialist politics. Because I think that can also provide for more opportunity for a greater, deeper, more serious transformation. We’ve seen, I think, in Mexico, what we could call a slow motion nationalization of the economy through major sectors of the economy, like the state-owned oil company, the nationalization of lithium. That is actually going to affect the interests of US capital and this issue, this tension that we have with the United States is likely going to increase. So I think we need to also think about how we can engage in that cross-border transnational solidarity, because without it, we’re not going to be able to get as far as we possibly could.
Marc Steiner:
Tamara, please round it out for us in terms of your perspective on that.
Tamara Pearson:
Yeah, so just quickly on the protest where the two women were arrested by Claudia’s government, absolutely there were real serious problems within that movement, but we never, ever justify… That doesn’t mean the repression was justified, like Assange.
José Luis Granados Ceja:
Agreed. You’re right.
Tamara Pearson:
Julian Assange is not perfect, but that doesn’t mean that we accept that he is being locked up. I think it’s really hard for progressive government. There’s this kind of global standard where capitalist or a conservative or right-wing governments are held to very low standards. And if they’re funding a genocide, there’s all these excuses that are made for them. But when a government is left-wing, particularly in Latin America, and it’s almost like there’s this expectation that it has to be perfect, and that if there’s a little problem, then it’s completely delegitimized. That’s something that I experienced in the seven years that I lived in Venezuela. And I don’t think that we should fall into that, but I don’t think that’s what’s happening here with Morena. We have to be clear that no matter how good Sheinbaum is as an individual, it’s her party that is in government. It’s her party that’s in the Parliament. It’s her party that is most of the governorships of the 31 or 33 states of Mexico. And that party is putting business repeatedly before people and the environment and before listening to the movements.
Here in Puebla state, Morena built a military town, a whole town which manufactures weapons and does training and that sort of thing. And it is not investing those kinds of resources in human rights, as I mentioned before, in environmental initiatives. It is simply not. Both AMLO, during his term, and Claudia when she was making her promises and in her victory acceptance speech said that she’s going to be promoting near-shoring in Mexico. She’s going to be promoting investment opportunities for US big businesses. And she has a very similar position to AMLO when it comes to how the government treats migrants. And that is extremely repressive.
Last year, the National Migrant Institute arrested and deported 700,000 migrants. The conditions here, I could talk for a very long time, and I know we don’t have that time, about how bad the situation is for migrants. 60 to 80% of women migrants are raped in their journey from the south through as they make their way to the US. So when it comes to looking after women, to standing up for women’s needs, to being like a female president, what actually matters is the actions. And Claudia has said that the way to handle the migration situation is to invest is private investment in those countries, which she believes will reduce poverty and the need to migrate, which is completely inaccurate. And at the same time, her party’s approach to security and on the murdering of activists, the disappearance of women, the disappearance of migrants, of poor people and so on, is two-pronged.
One is the social benefits, which are important, but not exactly a solution. And the other prong is militarization. And that’s what they said, and that’s what she said in her acceptance speech, that the approach to handling that is to increase the power of the National Guard. And I completely disagree. If anything, militarization has made things worse, a lot worse.
Marc Steiner:
Listening to both of you, this conversation is fascinating to me, and it’s also showing the kind of contradictions that exist in Mexico as they do in many other countries. And I’ll be anxious to follow-up with both of you and others in the coming months, coming year to see what changes really have been made, whether it’s around the missing, the issues of gangs, fighting poverty, the environmental questions, all the questions that come up, the breadth of the issues really focused in from the comments both you have made. And so this broad spectrum of the left, we’ll see where it takes Mexico. And I really appreciate the conversation. I think you laid forth the complexities that are faced in all of this.
I just want to thank you both for joining us today. It’s been a really interesting conversation and I want to cover this in greater detail. So Tamara Pearson and José Luis Granados Ceja, it’s really been a pleasure to talk to you both, and I hope to talk to you again.
José Luis Granados Ceja:
Absolutely.
Tamara Pearson:
Thank you so much.
José Luis Granados Ceja:
Great. I love to be able to have these debates amongst the left. I think they’re necessary, healthy, positive, and yeah, maybe we can do this as a regular thing and we can check in to see how far we’ve actually gotten.
Marc Steiner:
I’d like to do that. That would be great. We’ll stay in touch.
Tamara Pearson:
Talk to you soon.
Marc Steiner:
We really will.
Tamara Pearson:
Sounds awesome.
Marc Steiner:
Thank you both for your work, and thank you for taking your time with us here today.
José Luis Granados Ceja:
Thank you.
Tamara Pearson:
Okay, thank you. Bye-Bye.
Marc Steiner:
Good luck to Mexico.
Once again, thank you to Tamara Pearson and José Luis Granados Ceja for joining us today. And thanks to Cameron Grandino for running and editing this program and the tireless Kayla Rivera for making it all work behind the scenes. And everyone here at The Real News for making this show possible. Please let me know what you thought about, what you heard today, what you’d like us to cover. Just write to me at MSS@therealnews.com and I’ll get right back to you. Hope you enjoy this conversation. So for the crew here at The Real News, I’m Marc Steiner. Stay involved, keep listening, and take care.
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