Jen Perelman challenged incumbent Debbie Wasserman Schultz once before for Florida’s 25th congressional seat in the 2022 Democratic primary. Now, Perelman is back, and this time her staunch anti-Zionism is front and center in her campaign to unseat Wasserman Schultz, one of the most dedicated Zionists in Congress. Perelman sits down with The Marc Steiner Show for a tell-all interview, covering everything from her personal journey out of Zionism, to her plans to be a loud and proud “outlier” in Congress if elected.
Studio Production: Cameron Granadino
Post-Production: Alina Nehlich
Transcript
The following is a rushed transcript and may contain errors. A proofread version will be made available as soon as possible.
Marc Steiner:
Welcome to The Marc Steiner Show here on The Real News. I’m Marc Steiner. It’s great to have you all with us. Two years ago in the Democratic primary, Jen Perelman ran for Congress against sitting Congresswoman Debbie Wasserman Schultz in Florida’s 25th congressional district. She got 30% of the vote running as a progressive on domestic issues like healthcare for all, ending corporate welfare, environmental justice, and took on the power of APAC. She ran on her experience as a former Zionist, as someone who loved and spent time in Israel, but then the oppressive nature of the occupation got to her as to many other people, and she’s running again in a very different atmosphere. After October the seventh, after that attack by Hamas, 251 people taken hostage and then the war by Israel on Gaza where over 30,000 have been killed, over 80,000 wounded, tens of thousands missing, 80% of Gaza destroyed, and a growing percentage of the Jewish world opposing this war and others as well, obviously. So once again, we talked with Jen Perelman, an attorney, an activist running for Congress in Florida’s 25th district. And welcome Jen. Good to have you here.
Jen Perelman:
Thank you so much for having me on. It’s good to talk to you again.
Marc Steiner:
So this campaign, first of all, I do a series here on Rise of the Right, and I’m doing a series here that we’re in called, Not in Our Name.
Jen Perelman:
Yeah.
Marc Steiner:
And this is like a conjunction of the two to me in a way.
Jen Perelman:
Right.
Marc Steiner:
Because you’re running for Congress, literally in the belly of the beast.
Jen Perelman:
Yeah, I mean, it feels like that. Some days definitely worse than others, but it does. I mean, and it’s kind of interesting. Florida, we’re now considered a red state. I want people to understand that about us. We’re really not, we’re really a purple state that’s been hijacked by a bunch of red people in our state capitol, but in my district we’re blue and is this anomaly and it’s the bluest district in the state. And so we are definitely in an unusual district, and I am definitely up against one of the most corporate Congress people, established entrenched corrupt Congress people that there are. So it’s definitely an unusual environment for sure.
Marc Steiner:
So when you’re running this campaign, clearly a campaign that is against what Israel is doing in a district with a large Jewish population,-
Jen Perelman:
Yeah.
Marc Steiner:
With a very pro Zionist congresswoman who in some sense is popular with some people in the district.
Jen Perelman:
Yeah.
Marc Steiner:
I’m just curious about taking that on. What is different about this campaign from the last campaign you ran and how is it different in terms of your tactics and where you see people coming from in your district?
Jen Perelman:
Okay. So there’s a lot of different variables there. First of all, when I ran the first time, even back in yeah, in 2020, I was still under the delusion that there could maybe be a two state solution. So I have even in the past few years gone further to the left on that. I don’t know that I’d call it, further correct, further to the correct on that.
Marc Steiner:
Got you. Got you. Got you.
Jen Perelman:
Right. So that’s even shifted, but our district lines literally have shifted in a way that did cut out a very significant portion of our Jewish population. That’s coincidence. That happened in 22. As a result of the census and redistricting, we naturally got redistricted and the portion of our district, I don’t know if people are familiar with South Florida where I am, but in Broward County, we still had, even though it was just a sliver of Dade County was still in our district, but it was the affluent heart of the district that went all down the coastline into Dade County. And now that is no longer there.
And so our demographics have changed. A very large majority of the Zionists that are in my district are registered Republicans and we have closed primaries, so they don’t even vote in my primary. And my district is a fairly dominant blue district. So it’s not as much of an issue as people think. And yeah, there’s definitely going to be people that go with her on that issue. There is no doubt going to be some Democrats, secular Jews even that are going to, that’s their issue is Israel and they’re going to go with her. But I am finding so much more solidarity in so many other communities right now that are very motivated and organized as a result of October 7th.
Marc Steiner:
So you think, before we get into some of the issues, I really want to talk to you about it, and your sojourn in this.
Jen Perelman:
Yeah.
Marc Steiner:
So you think in this race at this point, you really, you have a real shot at winning this primary more than you did before?
Jen Perelman:
I do. I do for a lot of reasons, and that’s not to say that it’s still not an uphill battle.
Marc Steiner:
Right. Right.
Jen Perelman:
But I wouldn’t do it if I didn’t think it were possible. And everything that I do is with this clear intention of propelling my movement, this mission further and further regardless of me winning or losing that seat. So everything that I do is very mindful in my campaign of my bigger mission, and that goes well beyond what happens in this race. You see what I’m, so nothing is wasted here.
Marc Steiner:
So let’s talk a bit just for people listening to us now, your sojourn from a younger Jewish woman who went to Israel, spent time in Israel, came up in Zionist home as I did, and things began to shift. And you wrote about that I saw in Common Dreams.
Jen Perelman:
Yeah.
Marc Steiner:
So talk a bit about that sojourn for people listening to us.
Jen Perelman:
Yeah, so when I was in Israel was, I was 16, it was in 1987 and I was there. So this was actually the summer before the first intifada. Now I realize that. At the time I had no idea about any of that but. So when I was there in 87, there were no different highways, there were no walls, there was none of that stuff existed. So there were no visible signs of an apartheid state. So there was nothing at that point in time. So when I left and came back here and years go by and I’m watching and it starts looking very differently. So now I’m somewhere early in the 2000s around, I want to say the second intifada, and I’m seeing this and I’m like, what is going on? This is not what this looks like. So I started digging into that.
At the same time, the anti BDS legislations were popping up around the country here. And then I started digging into, well, what is BDS? Why are we anti BDS? What is BDS? And so I went down that rabbit hole and realized, oh, so it’s a nonviolent Palestinian resistance movement born out of oppression, and somehow I’m supposed to be against that. And being against that means that you are violating my first amendment rights in this country to be able to boycott, divest, or sanction as I see fit. I mean, that was the transition.
And then since then, and that of course was, I want to say 2005 ish, maybe 2006, and then it just was downhill from there, and then it just went, like then I just started noticing the more and more influence of the lobby and the Israeli lobby in Congress, and it just started seeming more and more sinister. And then it just all, like it was almost like a house of cards. It just completely started unraveling. And now I’m just beyond. Now I’m so furious about it. Now I don’t even consider Israel a real place anymore.
Marc Steiner:
Wow.
Jen Perelman:
It’s like Disney World. That’s Disney World. It’s like a fake ethnicity based on stolen ethnicity from other people of a language that had to be resurrected to pretend you’re an ethnicity and it’s infuriating.
Marc Steiner:
That’s really interesting. So what do you think this takes us? I mean, when you are on the campaigns trail and you’re talking about this issue, and we’ll try to get some of the other things that you stand for as well, but when you get to this issue and you make a statement like that, I mean, what happens? What do people talk about?
Jen Perelman:
Well, okay, first of all, that statement is not something I’m going to say while having a discussion with Zionists because that gets you nowhere. That’s a statement I’m saying to you and people, I mean, I have no problem with people knowing that’s what I believe, but that’s not the proper, like but at the end of the day, there are two groups of people right now, and actually I’ll say three. Let’s say three.
Marc Steiner:
Okay.
Jen Perelman:
There’s people that have gotten it since the day one. Okay. There’s people that are possible to come around and have come around, maybe they’re not raised that Zionist, like there’s sort of more, and then there’s the people that are just never going to get it. They’re just never going to get it. And those people are what I call too far gones, and there’s no point in engaging. You know what I’m saying? Once I establish that this person is not even dealing with my same reality, meaning they do not acknowledge the Nakba, they do not acknowledge that Israel is an occupation and they don’t acknowledge that the Palestinians have a right of return. If you don’t acknowledge the existence and some other basic tenets of this, right, like if you don’t acknowledge that, then we’re not going to have any sort of productive discussion. So for the most part, people that are too far gone are not people that I bother engaging with on this topic.
Marc Steiner:
So how does that play out in terms of the race you’re running?
Jen Perelman:
Yeah. Well, down here, for the most, honestly, I have yet to really, and like I said, the majority of our rabid Zionists are Republicans. So those are not even people that when we knock on doors, we’re only knocking on doors of registered Democrats. Right. So they’re just not people that are really engaged in this race because it’s just such a blue district. So that is that, and then of the people that are just Debbie people and just support her, and that’s it, it’s basically the same people that are the two far gones in the Zionism category. So at some point you accept that you work with people that you can, and there’s a lot of people that that isn’t their primary issue. And even though they disagree with me on that issue, they would still vote for me. Those are people that are in that middle category, and that’s fine, but it is what it is.
There’s nothing I can do to change that situation. Right. I’m not going to say anything else other than what I’m saying about it. I’m not going to believe anything unless somebody brings me new, further previously unknown information. Right. So there’s nothing to do. It is what it is. So I try to be as diplomatic as possible with people when I know that it’s a sensitive subject, but at the end of the day, there’s just no tolerance for this kind of nonsense like Zionism or any other kinds of bigotry. At some point, it’s like there is just zero tolerance.
Marc Steiner:
So I’m curious what you think, two things here. The first one is this particular war happening right now in Gaza is devastating.
Jen Perelman:
Yeah.
Marc Steiner:
And it has shifted a lot of people’s opinion. Even when I look at some polls around, especially in the Jewish community and younger Jews in particular, things are really shifting profoundly. And I wonder you think this, where it takes both Israel and Palestine in that struggle and where it takes America, what happens to us in this process this process because this has the potential to kind of explode on many levels,-
Jen Perelman:
Oh, yeah.
Marc Steiner:
Politically.
Jen Perelman:
Yeah. Well, geopolitically, this is potentially World War III disaster level nuclear problem. And I don’t say that hyperbolically. I’m saying that seriously, because all it takes is for Iran, and let me tell you something, and people need to understand this. It is by the grace of Iran that Israel still is there without being bombed. Okay. That is what I think. It is by the grace of Iran. So as soon as they stop dealing with nonsense and actually want to say, all right, to hell with it, we’re retaliating. Okay, that’s one problem because they can bomb Tel Aviv if they want to. So now we’re talking about what? Then we’ll have to have boots on the ground. The next thing you know Turkey will get involved with their land army and then forget it. This is an untenable unwinnable situation. This is not going to work, and the whole world sees it except for Israel, and that’s the problem.
So I am hopeful based on what you were just saying about the changing mindset among especially younger Jews in this country. But at the end of the day, this is one of those things where there will be a group of people, angry, bitter, disgruntled Zionists that will die at the end of their life, not having their way on this. That will happen. There will be people that will just not get their way on this. That’s how progress works. There were people that fought for segregation till they’re dying breath.
Marc Steiner:
Right.
Jen Perelman:
So there will be people that will basically die not getting their way or as we see the end of this other form of racist nationalism. So it’s the same thing, but I feel that in terms of geopolitically, the only way this is ending is with the United Nations peacekeepers on the ground, creating an actual United Palestine state from the river to the sea where everybody has equal rights. And how that happens militarily, how that happens in terms of diplomatically, I really don’t know, but I know that Israel cannot continue to exist as this. This is not a tenable situation.
Marc Steiner:
So let’s say that when we wake up on election day, primary day,-
Jen Perelman:
Yeah.
Marc Steiner:
And you win,-
Jen Perelman:
Yeah.
Marc Steiner:
How do you see what happens to you and this issue in Congress?
Jen Perelman:
I see that I am very much outcasted. I see that I am a pariah. I’m probably like the Thomas Massie of Democrats. I don’t know. I’m not going to, look, it’s like how effective, and I’ve said this all along. I’ve been saying this for years. When you’re on the outside politically from the center where I am, like when you’re, and I’ll say left because fine, left of center. Okay. So when you’re on the outside of what is the bell curve, you’re always going to sort of be pulling people in your direction. And it’s always sort of an uphill battle until the curve shifts a little bit. And so I don’t anticipate it being any different for me in a congressional position than I’m in here. But yeah, legislatively, no, I don’t think I would get elected and be able to give everybody single payer healthcare tomorrow. I don’t think that legislatively, that’s necessarily where the people that are on the outliers are ever the most effective.
I think where the outliers are most effective is using their platform to pull people to the outlier. And I guess at the end of the day, it’s just going to be chipping away at enough of that on the outside, merging with labor, trying to connect all the different coalitions that are fighting against the same oppressor. Because that’s what I feel like one of my biggest purposes is and I felt like with my podcast, is really combining different movements because if all of these movements showed up for each other, that’s our general strike. And I feel like we need to get the labor movement, the environmental movement, the abolition movement, all of these groups are fighting the same oppressor. And so I just feel like that’s one of the things I would be most effective at, is using my platform to continue to shift that Overton window and get more and more people in because it’s not going to happen by me.
Marc Steiner:
Follow up on that for a moment here before we come back to Israel, Palestine.
Jen Perelman:
Yeah.
Marc Steiner:
I mean, because in this country right now, we’re facing a huge divide.
Jen Perelman:
Yeah.
Marc Steiner:
And it’s a real struggle for the future of democracy in our own country and where we might go. And in all the years I’ve been a political activist and doing work in journalism as well as an organizer, the last time I saw this divide this intense and this dangerous is when I was a civil rights worker on the Eastern shore in the Mississippi, is the last time I felt this.
Jen Perelman:
Yeah.
Marc Steiner:
So I’m curious, your analysis about what is happening in our country now, and as a potential congresswoman, where do you think we’re going and how we organize around this?
Jen Perelman:
Yeah. So what you’re talking about, this sort of growing feeling of discomfort and just malcontent, it’s very, very pervasive. I feel it all over the place. It’s not just divisive, it’s just general, just unhappiness.
Marc Steiner:
Yeah.
Jen Perelman:
But where I really feel like as frustrating as that is, it’s such a good sign. It’s such a good sign because it’s a sign that we feel, it’s a sign that we’re noticing. It’s a sign that people are waking up and not wanting to take it anymore. And it’s almost like you’re watching the death throes of capital in that. And that’s I feel like one of my jobs, is to steward people from that feeling into, okay, what do we do with this next? Where can we go with this? What can we do with this? Make sure that people are punching up and not kicking down. And really just try to allocate and combine as many people to get as much progress as we can.
But yeah, no, there’s so much anger right now and it’s very valid. I am so angry right now. I have never been this angry in my whole life as I am right now. And it’s all I can do to just constantly be remembering where to aim it and how to use that energy. And unfortunately, a lot of people sort of defer to their basis selves and are very easy to sway into kicking down and punching sideways and going after others. And that’s the problem, is that desperate times allows for people like a Trump. And again, he is by no means the end of democracy to me. The fact that those are the choices already indicates we’ve reached the end of democracy.
But I think that the fact that we get people like him is because of how unhappy and how desperate people are. And they see him, he’s a snake oil salesman, but they see him as some sort of the answer and he teaches them to kick down. And that is the opposite of what we need. But there’s nobody on let’s say, for lack of a better word, the left like a Bernie at that point offering a direction otherwise. There’s nobody. The Democrats aren’t exactly saying, well, you need to punch up because they are the up.
Marc Steiner:
So I mean, the things you’re talking about, this moment are things I wrestle with all the time as well.
Jen Perelman:
Yeah.
Marc Steiner:
I mean, because we are, I think as a nation and as a world, when I look at what’s happening in the Middle East especially, but what’s happening in our own country is that we really are on a precipice and kind of building a movement and electing certain political leaders to address that is really, I mean, it’s really critical. I mean it’s, I think about what our kids are going to inherit and where we’re going. So I’m curious what kind of, before we come back and conclude with looking at Palestine, Israel, talk about this coalition you’re trying to build in your district, which is really a pretty diverse district.
Jen Perelman:
Yeah. Well, when I talk about building coalition, I’m talking in a global sense, like what I’ve been doing for the past five years and just interconnecting so many different groups and different actions and different causes and linking people and really trying for people to see the intersectionality of all of it. But locally, I’m just a very on the ground in my community person. I mean, I knocked doors all the time. I was knocking doors even when I wasn’t running because I was canvassing to get no, I was either canvassing for my friend who’s now the mayor for that position, and I was also canvassing for a period of time to get our women’s reproductive rights on our ballot. We were able to get that on our November ballot.
So I’ve stayed very politically active and just meeting people. But the thing about me, and this is definitely a distinction between me and someone like my incumbent, is that I really do appeal to a wide range of people. Even on my podcast, I have a lot of Republicans, libertarians, I even have anarchists. I have have a wide range of people and I think that that is what we need. We need somebody that can understand different people, what they need, communicate to them in an effective manner, and stop pitting those groups against each other. And that is something that I actually do really well. And it’s something I think that often frustrates some of my comrades on the left, is that I am able to get along with the right.
And what bothers people is that in order to truly do that, you have to do it without judgment, you have to do it without judgment. So if I’m in Congress and I’m working on something, and let’s say somebody like Thomas Massie who I have great respect for, and he and I disagree on a ton of things, right, without a doubt, I disagree with him on a ton of things, but it’s like going into any sort of engagement with somebody with a holier than thou judgmental attitude will produce nothing. It’ll produce exactly the mess that we’re in right now, which is complete tribalism where they’re fighting each other, but yet they both stand for the same corporations. It’s like you’re literally watching a bird fight each wing with itself, and we’re not getting anywhere.
And so I think that what we need to do is stop worrying about labels and tribalism and just try to work to, I mean, it sounds cliche, but it really isn’t hard to work with people if you put the labels aside. If we didn’t have parties, if I could wave a magic wand and overnight there were no parties and no one knew what anyone’s team or anybody, any of that, do you know how much stuff we could get done? It would be amazing.
Marc Steiner:
Yeah, I understand. If you look at any of our neighborhoods we live in and you’re a part of a community organization, that’s what exists.
Jen Perelman:
Yeah, exactly.
Marc Steiner:
So as we close out here, coming back to where we began,-
Jen Perelman:
Yeah.
Marc Steiner:
Where do you think what’s happening now, where does it take us and how do we get out of it?
Jen Perelman:
Well, unfortunately, the problem we have, and this is something that I find to be this sort of level of Western entitlement that we have in this country, and it’s at an all time high. And I say this because people have very much conflated feeling uncomfortable with feeling unsafe. And I have a huge problem with this. And not only that, it’s impacting our constitutional rights is what we’re seeing right now left. And so where we need to be in this country is we need to be at a place where we all can feel comfortable with the discomfort. It’s very hard to deal with it. I had to go through it. You had to go through it. I’m not saying it’s easy to kind of come to terms with some of our not so pleasant past actions and deal with that, but people’s comfort level, particularly white privileged Jewish people’s level of comfort is just not something that we need to be prioritizing right now. Okay.
And I think that that’s the problem. People being unhappy with antisemitism words, people being not happy with the idea of antisemitism and the discomfort of that does not take precedence over human beings being genocided in real time. Okay. And until we sort of grasp that and the people realize that they’re going to just have to sit with their discomfort, that is how long this will keep going on. It’s really up to them. I always say the level of violence or the level of uprising in this case is determined by the oppressor, not the oppressed. So it’s really up to them at what point they want to see supporting a genocidal apartheid state or not, how far they want to go down that rabbit hole before we end up being at the basic on the other side of the whole world with Israel and just us. I’d like to not see that. I’m proposing a better situation. I think we can have a better situation, but it’s not going to be with the military industrial complex and APAC running Congress. That I know.
Marc Steiner:
And that is absolutely true. That is absolutely true. Those kind of voices of reason, like you’re talking about, are really critical in all these discussions.
Jen Perelman:
Exactly. And that’s not what we’re having. How can we have reasonable discussion when all of the people that need to have the discussion are on the payroll of the companies that are profiting from the situation that needs to be discussed? It is the most ridiculous, it’s like a candid camera situation. I don’t understand how anybody could take any of these people seriously that are getting paid by companies like Raytheon, or Boeing, or Northrop Grumman or any of that. I don’t understand. How are we even taking these people seriously?
Marc Steiner:
So you take no corporate money?
Jen Perelman:
No. First of all, and that’s so funny. And recently someone said, “Well, do you agree not to take APAC money?” And I just started cracking up and I’m like, “First of all, I have been harping about APAC and calling them out as foreign agents for at least like four years now. I don’t think they’re offering me any.”
Marc Steiner:
No, I don’t think so. No.
Jen Perelman:
Right. And nor would any corporations. Although what’s interesting though is that I kind of feel like if there were some corporation that like the anti-corporate sentiment and was happy with what I was saying and they properly treated their employees well, I don’t know. I don’t know. I might consider taking a few bucks, but it would have to be like a Ben & Jerry situation. You know what I mean? We’d have to have a meeting of the minds. But no, they’re not offering me anything. Are you kidding? I’m like, I’m calling for dollars people every day and scraping for $50 donations.
Marc Steiner:
Well, good luck in the primary, and we’ll look forward to talking to you once this is done and,-
Jen Perelman:
Thank you.
Marc Steiner:
And you clearly, I can hear from our conversation, you have a lot of depth of ideas and you’ve got a lot of fight in your heart.
Jen Perelman:
I do. I’m so angry right now. I got to tell you, I almost feel like, yeah, it would’ve been better off for people had I won in 20. Yeah, I feel so angry right now. Like hell hath no fury. You know what I mean? Than a woman used in ethnic cleansing.
Marc Steiner:
Right. Right.
Jen Perelman:
And angry about it. But can I just tell people to go to the campaign website?
Marc Steiner:
Absolutely. Go ahead.
Jen Perelman:
Okay. So guys, check out the campaign website. It’s Jen2024.org. And please, and anybody can volunteer. We need text people, phone banking people. We need all sorts of people, and we need money because I’m fighting a corporate monolith. So please help us out if you can and follow us on social media. And I appreciate it. Thanks so much for having me on.
Marc Steiner:
And Jen Perelman, thank you for joining us, and we’ll be looking towards election day and see what happens and be putting all your contact information on our site for this story. So thank you so much.
Jen Perelman:
Absolutely. Thank you.
Marc Steiner:
Once again. Thank you Jen Perelman for joining us today. And thanks to Cameron Granadino for running this program and our audio editor, Alina Nelah and the tireless Kayla Rivara for making it all work behind the scenes. And everyone here at The Real News for making the show possible. Please let me know what you thought about what you heard today, what you’d like us to cover. Just write to me at mss@therealnews.com and I’ll write you right back. And once again, thank you Jen Perelman for being our guest. And so for the crew here, The Real News. I’m Marc Steiner. Stay involved, keep listening, and take care.
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