The genocide in Gaza has captured the attention of the world, but nowhere in Palestine is safe from Israel’s onslaught. Israeli repression, land grabs, and deadly raids in the West Bank have increased dramatically since Oct. 7. Long subjected to a brutal apartheid system and routine attacks from settlers and the IDF, Palestinians in the West Bank now face a more aggravated Zionist threat than before, with “no light at the end of the tunnel.” Palestinian-American humanitarian Joyce Ajlouny, director of the American Friends Service Committee (AFSC), joins The Marc Steiner Show to discuss her recent trip to Ramallah, West Bank, her decades of on-the-ground humanitarian work in Palestine, and the services AFSC aid workers continue to bravely provide to hundreds of thousands of people under the worst of conditions.
Studio Production: Cameron Granadino
Post-Production: Alina Nehlich
Transcript
Marc Steiner: Welcome to The Marc Steiner Show here on The Real News. I’m Marc Steiner. It’s wonderful to have you all with us.
As some of you know, I’ve been deeply involved in working to end the Israeli occupation of the West Bank and Gaza since 1968. Here at The Real News, I’ve been producing a series called Not in Our Name, with Jewish voices standing up to Israel, saying not in our name. But now this slaughter has taken hold.
What’s happening now is breaking my heart. It’s mind-numbing. On the day we taped this conversation, the war on Gaza is in its 244th day. No less than 36,654 Palestinians, 71% of them women, children, and infants, have been slaughtered. 83,309 people wounded, with more than 10,000 buried under the rubble of bombed homes. Almost all of 2.5 million Gazans have been displaced. Communities, hospitals destroyed, or wastelands.
My guest today is Joyce Ajlouny, who’s been leading the American Friends Service Committee since 2017. She’s a Palestinian American and a Quaker, who served as a country director for Palestine and Israel with Oxfam Great Britain, chaired the Association of International Development Agencies, and, for 13 years, was the director of the Ramallah Friends School in the West Bank, which is a K through 12 Quaker school.
Remember the three Palestinian college students who were shot in Vermont? They were graduates of that school.
Joyce, welcome. It’s good to have you with us.
Joyce Ajlouny: Good to be here. Thanks for having me, Marc.
Marc Steiner: I almost don’t know where to begin. I’ve been covering this so deeply, and you were there recently. I’ve read the things that you’ve written. To me, it’s almost impossible to put your hands around what is going on at the moment. I understand it from people who survived the camps and fought in the Warsaw ghetto against the Nazis, and I can’t believe what’s being done in our name to Palestinian people at this moment.
You’ve been witnessing it. Tell us a bit about what you feel and what you’ve seen on the ground.
Joyce Ajlouny: Yeah, it’s true. Where do we begin, Marc? This is such a deeply concerning issue for us at the American Friends Service Committee, but also for me personally, where I have lived most of my life in Ramallah on the West Bank. I have dear friends in Gaza. Just to see that the world has allowed this level of destruction and killings to that level of a genocide, to me, is mind-boggling.
It’s hard to understand when we are relying on so many systems in the world, an order that will prevent, especially after so many genocides and the Holocaust, that we have systems in place to prevent exactly this sort of thing from happening.
A lot of people ask me, how am I feeling? How am I doing? Myself and Palestinians all over the world, we’re stunned. We have no more words. We are speechless. Just watching our feed, only today, 68 innocent people were killed as they were sleeping and taking shelter in a school. Yesterday, 101. It’s just mind-boggling that this continues.
To me, what really is most frustrating is the complicity of our government and for them not to do more.
Marc Steiner: I know on March 7, you participated in a demonstration with AFSC and others where you blocked the route of Biden’s motorcade. You had some very strong things to say about what could and should be happening instead of what’s happening now from our government.
Joyce Ajlouny: Yes. Yes. I think it takes, we have to stretch ourselves to do courageous things, and civil disobedience is one of them. I was, yes, one of those who took part in that civil disobedience action, blocking the road at the time of the State of the Union Address.
It seems like… I’ve been on the Hill many times, I’ve been to the State Department, I’ve been to the White House, speaking on behalf of AFSC, and to urge the government to call for a permanent ceasefire, and demand it now, to call for an end to fueling Israel with weapons, and to ensure that humanitarian access is granted, unfettered, to the Palestinian community in Gaza.
Unfortunately, eight months in, myself and the so many courageous people on the streets taking the lead of Palestinian Americans, Jewish Americans, people of all faiths, it’s going to deaf ears, and we are getting lip service in return.
We have seen some shifts, of course, and we think it’s due to the protest movement. But when someone, a staffer in a congressman’s office tells us that the phone calls that they receive calling for a ceasefire are 20 to one, yet that congressman is not doing anything to call for a ceasefire.
It puts to questions, like, nothing is urging the government to take concrete steps to stop the onslaught. I think it’s a phone call away. I think Biden can actually do it if he had the will and the intention to stop military aid and put pressure on the Israeli government to stop the onslaught.
Marc Steiner: He doesn’t have to play the political game and condemn Israel. I think it would be nice, but he can bring parties together and create peace like Carter attempted to do at Camp David.
Joyce Ajlouny: Yeah, I think you’re right. I think he can, but I also, if and when that happens, it doesn’t seem like he’s moving in that direction, unfortunately.
Marc Steiner: No.
Joyce Ajlouny: I think that what I have not seen is a vision for a peace process that breaks away from the past 30 years of this Oslo paradigm that has failed miserably. Unfortunately, there has to be a reckoning with that, and say, okay, the role that the US has played for the past 30 years-plus, beyond the Biden administration, has not brought peace to Palestinians nor Israelis. It has not provided. It wasn’t even in the best interest of the United States.
Look at where we are today. In my visit to Palestine last month, people were questioning me about the role of the United States on our tax dollars and why they are not doing more. People are pointing the finger at the United States, saying they are complicit in what is happening in Gaza.
I hope that, whatever happens, that it doesn’t take us back to the status quo, and that the United States can be an honest broker, provide that impartiality as a mediator, reroute us in international law, in the moral authority for humanity, and equality, and all the good stuff. UN resolutions past and present, to reroute us there and to ensure that the Palestinians have the right to self-determination, in whichever way, as long as those principles are upheld, and that Israel has its security as well.
There are things that can be done, but I think it takes a will. What I’m not seeing in this administration very clearly is a will.
Marc Steiner: Talk a bit about what you saw when you went to Palestine last month.
Joyce Ajlouny: Well, I went to see family and meet staff. AFSC has staff in Gaza. I’d like to talk a little bit about that, Marc, in a bit.
Marc Steiner: Yeah, please, please.
Joyce Ajlouny: Yes, to visit family and friends.
But let me start a little bit with, I did manage to meet our staff in Gaza online. Obviously, my heart was with them. I wanted to go, people don’t realize how close… Gaza is 60 miles away or so from Ramah where I was. Yet we had no access, of course, to going.
But we did meet them online in that special moment when they had internet access. That was good enough. They poured their heart out. I’m just in awe of them, because they are three staff. They work with many, many volunteers.
Marc Steiner: Three?
Joyce Ajlouny: Three, yeah, they’re three staff: Adham, and Firas, and Serena. But as I said, they work with other organizations, partner organizations. They have provided food, hygiene kits, they’ve done activities with children. They have served over half a million people since Oct. 7.
I am just in awe of how they do it, because they have lost their homes themselves. They have been displaced time and time again. Every few weeks, they’re saying, we’re moving again, we’re moving again. Last time they moved from Rafah, and now they are in tents.
And yet they wake up in the morning, they tent for their families, making sure they have food and water if they can. Then they go off and do AFSC work and provide humanitarian aid, as much as possible, as much as they can find.
We have been supporting them with that. We have an operation in Egypt. As you know, trucks of aid that we’ve purchased, just like all other international organizations, have been stuck at the border. Israel is not letting them in.
Our last truck that was coming in through Jordan was attacked by the settler motorcade. Luckily, the flour on the truck was intact and we were able to bring it in. We are, us old humanitarian organizations, are having a hard time getting our humanitarian aid in.
Nonetheless, the work continues. We continue to support as much as we can on the ground. We know it’s a drop in the ocean.
But my stay was in Ramallah. I think one thing that has been absent in the media these days here in the United States is a focus on what’s going on in the West Bank.
It was petrifying to be there. I couldn’t go on the road to go to a nearby village because my son who’s there and my mother who’s there were like, no, no, no, it’s not safe, because of the settler violence. That has been, to me, a very stark difference from in the past, where we kind of knew what roads to avoid, et cetera, to stay safe. This time around, there was this aura of insecurity that was very stark.
Also, settlers are raiding towns every day. One family member had a young daughter, she’s 22 or 23, and they kidnapped her at night. The Israeli soldiers came in, kidnapped her at 3:00 in the morning and took her in.
What people don’t realize is that, since Oct. 7, Israel has detained more than 8,000 Palestinians. That, to me, is an astounding number. The only reason, in my opinion, that they’ve detained so many people is that they want to use them as bargaining chips. That’s what happened during the last exchange. After that deal as just a temporary ceasefire deal, I believe Israel released some 1,000 Palestinian prisoners. But the next day, they can go back and round them up again, or round up others.
That is what’s happening on the West Bank. It’s very, very dire. People don’t feel safe. Israeli raids, settler raids are the name of the game.
Then there’s this sense of despair, Marc, was what I felt of people who wanted to do so much, yet they couldn’t. They wanted to reach out to their people in Gaza, to go there, help out with the humanitarian effort. And that sense of helplessness, feeling alone, that they couldn’t do much to help their own people.
At the same time, I saw a lot of creativity, and I keep talking, I like to talk about the silver lining sometimes. A radio station that was putting on some educational materials so young students in Gaza can tune in and learn a thing or two, or the local university there, Birzeit University, offering the students in Gaza classes online so they can finish their university degrees.
One architecture school, they sent images of how to build your own tent to their Gazan colleagues, et cetera. These are the sort of things that I like to talk about because it talks about the resilience of the Palestinian community, and that’s what I saw there.
Marc Steiner: That is really a critical point, I think, for people to understand, is the resilience inside the Palestinian world, and how people are doing everything they can to survive and to help one another survive.
Joyce Ajlouny: Yes.
Marc Steiner: It’s unfathomable. If I try to explain to people, to talk about what it’s like to not have your freedom, to not be able to go from village to village, to not see your parents, to be taken to jail for no reason other than you’re Palestinian.
Joyce Ajlouny: Yeah. I think, Marc, I think people don’t understand that this is not an Oct. 7 start date for this occupation and this apartheid system. I’ve lived through it all my life as a child. Where do I begin to explain the ins and outs of what it means to be under the military control of a belligerent, settler-colonial system that wants to ethnically cleanse me from the land? I believe that that is what’s happening. It’s really about that. It’s a continuation of that.
So many of my family members left 10, 20 years ago from Ramallah. They’re living in the United States, and the reason they left is that Israel has made it unbearable for people to live there.
I think that that’s what people don’t realize, is that the day in and out of our lives, the daily humiliation that I remember as a child, and as leading a school there, seeing how brutal the occupation is. And the trauma, the collective trauma that has caused for generations. That’s something people can’t really understand. And now we’re surrounded by walls, and total impunity of anyone who attacks a village.
There’s no accountability. Take it from even an American citizen, Shireen Abu Akleh, the journalist who was targeted and killed, there was no accountability. And times thousands and tens of thousands now in Gaza who are being targeted and killed, aid workers. I fear for our staff as aid workers.
There was so much attention given to the central food kitchen aid workers who were sadly and tragically targeted and killed, and rightly so, but no one’s talking about the tens of Palestinian aid workers that have been targeted and killed at the same time. There’s just the total impunity.
We as Palestinians, we continue to live in a world that we feel doesn’t regard us as of value or of equal human beings. That’s how we feel.
At the same time, we do see how the people in the street in the United States and all over the world, people joining us in our struggle in solidarity that is so strong, from the student encampments, to Jewish Voice for Peace, If Not Now, so many other groups that are walking the talk and are putting their bodies on the line for this cause.
To me, when I was in Ramallah, it was in the midst of those encampments and at the height of it. I can’t tell you, even our staff in Gaza mentioned them to me, and they said how much hope they give them. There’s something to be said about the difference that they have made, at least to lift up the spirits of those who are living under the gun. That’s important that they continue.
Marc Steiner: I think that there’s so much I wanted to talk to you about, maybe we can do it over a different period of time. One of the things, in all the years that you’ve been doing the work you do, and the years you ran that school, and I watched you on my friend Amy Goodman’s show reading those poems from the young people who were from your school that wrote these poems when they were in the sixth grade. I’m talking about the young people who were shot in Vermont.
Joyce Ajlouny: Yes.
Marc Steiner: Well, two things. Let me just start with this: Where do you think this goes from here, and what do you think we have to do to get us there?
Joyce Ajlouny: I think if there’s one thing that is positive, if I want to say that, because it’s hard to put anything positive in it —
Marc Steiner: I understand. Yeah.
Joyce Ajlouny: You understand. Is that for once the Palestinian narrative and the Palestinian story is now out there, and our narrative about our dispossession in 1948 and our Nakba, our catastrophe, that narrative is out there. I know there are so many attempts to silence it, and that’s been the case for decades. Now people are asking questions. They are wondering, who are those Palestinians, and why have they been dispossessed for years? I think that we need to do some reckoning with that. People in this country need to do some reckoning around that, and around their role as the US government in supporting it.
I think that we have seen the people are speaking. And I don’t have the latest polls, but even so many of the Democrats are saying, we are against what Israel is doing, and we are against supporting them. There are huge percentages.
This is the first time Israel’s being called out, and in such large numbers, because no one supports genocide. No one wants to put their name next to genocide. It’s going to come back and haunt us. I know that.
I think what we need to do is to stay the course. At AFSC, Marc, I’d like to just say a few things about what we are doing —
Marc Steiner: Yeah, please do.
Joyce Ajlouny: We’re doing work on the ground, as I said, the humanitarian work. I don’t know if you know that AFSC was called by the United Nations in 1948 after the Nakba to set up camps in the Gaza Strip. We were the first and, I think, only organization there doing that. We were doing the bulk of the work. It was soon after we received the Nobel Peace Prize in 1947. I think that’s why we were in the limelight a little bit. The UN asked us to go to Gaza, and we went, and we set up the camps. Then after that, the UNRWA, the UN Agency, was created and took over.
But we have remained there since. We’ve been in Gaza since 1948. On the ground here in the United States, we have been relentless about our advocacy for Palestinian rights. For example, today, we have something we call the Apartheid Free Campaign. We are inviting faith communities and congregations and organizations to step away from supporting the apartheid system, and occupation, and settler colonialism. We’re asking them to take a pledge. That’s been two years now in the making, this campaign.
Because what it does is also opens conversation. Okay, apartheid, why are you calling it apartheid? Let’s talk about it. Communities, congregations, and faith communities are coming together to discuss and to see if they feel comfortable with the pledge. We are, in all, over 130 congregations that signed the pledge so far.
What also, the other thing that we do is that we have a weekly action hour for Ceasefire Now where people sign up. It’s every Friday at 12:00 PM Eastern, and where they can get updates from us straight from the ground in Gaza, but also they can take actions collectively together. They call elected officials, or they write to the editor, or they make calls to their elected officials. That’s something that we do every Friday. Thousands have registered for this with us. We’re very happy with that.
Another thing that I’m really, really proud of what we’re doing is that we have, for years, been working on economic justice issues. We have developed, we do a lot of research on corporate complicity in oppressive systems, especially occupation and apartheid. We produce a lot of research on these companies. We have an online screen called Investigate where folks can go in and plug in their investments and see if they are on the divestment lists or not.
We have been, on the back end, supporting the BDS movement in doing so. As of late, because of the student encampments and their demand for divestment from their universities, I think we have stepped that up.
We also have a guide that guides students on how to negotiate and how to talk to their university investment committees. It’s a full-fledged guide with resources and how-to. It’s also on our website: afsc.org/divest.
We have been on this for a long time, because as a Quaker organization, we believe in nonviolence as a tool for resisting injustice. We find that divestment is a very powerful tool. We’ve seen it at work ending the South African apartheid.
We are behind the scenes doing a lot of that work for the movement. These are some of the things we are doing. We published a book called Light in Gaza that was published two years ago. It’s an anthology. We asked Gazan writers to write about their imaginations of Gaza without occupation. That’s why it’s called Light in Gaza. It’s beautiful.
One of the authors was Dr. Refaat Alareer, who, as you may know, was killed. He’s the one who wrote the poem “If I Must Die”. It’s a very popular poem.
Marc Steiner: Yes, yes.
Joyce Ajlouny: He’s one of the authors in that book. We have been, for years, trying to bring the voice of Gazans. We have a campaign called Gaza Unlocked, where the aim of that is to bring the voices of Gazans into the US mainstream. We have been supporting study towards the mastermind behind the Gaza march, The Great March of Return, if you remember that. It was every Friday on the border.
Marc Steiner: I do.
Joyce Ajlouny: Yes. The mastermind is Ahmed Abu Artema, and we invited him to the United States three or four years ago. We did a tour for him around the country, talking to different media and organizations about his notion and his vision for nonviolent resistance.
That is what we do as a Quaker organization. We need to speak truth to power, but also promote the efforts towards justice that are nonviolent. That’s why we are very much in support of the divestment effort.
Marc Steiner: Well, the work you’re doing is very critical.
One thing, we don’t have a lot of time, but just to… Where do you think, as an activist, as a leader of an organization, as a nonviolent activist, someone who’s been working at this their whole life, where do you see the role and power of nonviolence playing in this? How does that work when an Israeli army is decimating and slaughtering people all around you?
Joyce Ajlouny: Yeah, it’s hard. I remember at the time with my students when I was leading the school, and they see their people getting killed, their own families, their homes demolished or imprisoned, and they’re angry. What do you do with this anger? What do you do with this anger? How do you channel it in ways that are nonviolent?
I can’t say that… What we have to do as leaders who believe in the power of nonviolent resistance is to put those options, make them available to them, and make compelling arguments for why, in the hope that they will understand and follow through.
It’s difficult. Not everybody prescribes to that. Some people are too angry, especially during this time of the genocide in Gaza. I’ve had friends and people that I know that have always been proponents of nonviolent resistance, always supported it. Today, they’re questioning it. They’re like, we’re stuck. We’re stuck.
I do understand that, but I think as a Quaker organization, we need to really be pushing that as much as possible. I saw the beauty of the impact of nonviolent resistance during the first Intifada when I was living on the West Bank.
Marc Steiner: That’s right, you lived through that. That’s right.
Joyce Ajlouny: Yes, I lived through that, and I saw how beautiful it was and how impactful it was, and it changed public opinion. The Oslo peace process started, I think, because of that.
I remember the civil disobedience we did, the community protection that we did. Israel closed all the schools. I was teaching at the Ramallah Friends School then, and they shut down all schools for months. We were teaching kids in our clandestine classrooms and planting community gardens. We had neighborhood watch, and had peaceful demonstrations — Of course, we were attacked — And boycotted Israeli goods. It was just really beautiful to see the power of it.
The Great March of Return is one that, unfortunately, that’s the thing: you do the nonviolent methods, but then you are faced in return by Israeli aggression. During The Great March of Return, I believe 100 and some, I can’t remember how many, I think 200, 214 Palestinians were killed by snipers, and 46 children, during those nonviolent things.
One film that I urge your listeners to go and look for is the Five Broken Cameras, it’s an Academy Award-nominated film. Because it talks about one village in the West Bank and how they were on a path resisting the settlement expansion and building around their village. For seven years, they were documenting their movement, and it’s called Five Broken Cameras.
We have some amazing examples of resistance, but unfortunately, the response has been quite violent against them. I always know that that’s the only way. There should always be room for diplomacy, and for shared humanity, and moral courage to really rise above. That is, our leaders today, especially in Israel, are not showing that. We need to keep at it. There’s no other way, really. There’s no other way.
That’s why working for a faith community like the American Friends Service Committee and AFSC grounds us in our values. I think we need to always refer to them as our foundation for our moral grounding and ethical frameworks of how we want to deal with conflict in the world, going back to messages of our compassion, and peace, and justice. We have to keep the course. It takes time. It’s not going to happen overnight.
Unfortunately, that’s how I feel that the situation in Palestine, and the occupation, and the apartheid, and the genocide is going to continue. I don’t see a light at the end of the tunnel, unfortunately. That’s why people need to continue the course of standing up and raising their voice as high as can be, so folks…
We’ve seen it historically from all sorts of civil rights movements, that that’s what it took, the people speaking up. The anti-war movement, that’s what it took, people speaking up, and standing up boldly, and courageously, and staying the course until freedom and justice is attained.
Marc Steiner: Very well said and very true. That’s what it does take. It heartens me to see the growing number of Jewish Americans, the people I grew up with, standing up and saying, not in our name. We have to get more of us out there to do that.
Joyce Ajlouny: Yes. I can’t tell you enough what it does to our spirits. I have been working very closely with JVP and If Not Now, and it’s what’s giving us hope. All my Palestinian friends here, Palestinian Americans, all they want to talk about is how moved they are by the courage of young and old Jewish activists who are really standing up saying, not in our name.
That has been really fueling us to do more because we know we’re not alone. We have so many constituents, so many communities that are standing by us boldly, doing the hard work. That’s all been incredibly, incredibly hopeful for us.
Marc Steiner: I want to thank you for being with us today. I want to thank you for the work you do. As we leave each other today, when you were on Democracy Now! and you read those poems of the kids who were graduates of your school in Ramallah, who were also the kids who were shot and attacked in Vermont, and the poems they wrote when they were in the sixth grade in 2015.
Joyce Ajlouny: Yes.
Marc Steiner: I don’t know if you have them in front of you. I do.
Joyce Ajlouny: I don’t.
Marc Steiner: I do [laughs].
Joyce Ajlouny: Okay, okay.
Marc Steiner: I think it speaks to the power of young Palestinian children and Palestinians in general. I think it speaks to the incredible work that the Friends School does in Ramallah. People should know about this. I’ll be linking to all that when this goes online.
Joyce Ajlouny: That’s great.
Marc Steiner: I should release one of them. I don’t know whether it should be “Hope Dwells in my Heart”, or “My Ears Are Pounding”.
Joyce Ajlouny: Yeah, because it’s been a while since I read them. It’s been months, so I can’t —
Marc Steiner: Let me just read them, [inaudible].
Joyce Ajlouny: Okay, sure.
Marc Steiner: This is by Hisham Awartani.
Joyce Ajlouny: Awartani, yeah.
Marc Steiner: He was a graduate of the Friends School. He wrote this in the sixth grade. He was one of the kids who were young men who was shot in that attack in Vermont. He wrote, and remember folks, I said he wrote this in the sixth grade:
“Hope dwells in my heart
It shines like a light in darkness
Light cannot be smothered
It cannot be drowned out by tears and the screams of the wounded.
It only grows in strength
This light can outshine hate
This light can outshine injustice
It outshines segregation and apartheid
As of Greek legend, Pandora opened a box
And when she did that, all the evil escaped
But luckily, Pandora closed the jar before hope could escape
As long as hope stayed in that jar
Hope would never escape
So I ask you one thing, learn from that story
Learn to never give up hope
Learn to let hope give power in the darkest times
And let the light shine”
The other poem I’m going to leave you all with as well — And is by the same person who wrote the same poem — This is, I’ll read this to you, Tahseen wrote this, sixth grade:
“My ears are pounding
Children dying
Mothers crying
Authorities lying
My ears are pounding
My ears are pounding
Missiles destroying
Bombs exploding
Bullets killing
My ears are pounding
Press careless
Dreams traceless
Lands ownerless
My ears are pounding
Kids without mothers
Beds without covers
Palestine without others
My ears are pounding
My ears are pounding
There is one sound I heard
Not from a breeze or a bird
The sound of darkness
My ears are pounding
My ears are pounding
I’d rather be deaf”
Joyce, thank you so much for the work you do.
Joyce Ajlouny: Of course. Thank you, Marc, for having me. I enjoyed the conversation.
Marc Steiner: I look forward to having many more and staying in touch. Joyce Ajlouny, who’s doing the work that needs to be done as head of the AFSC, fighting for human rights across the globe and in Palestine, Israel, thank you so much for being with us.
Joyce Ajlouny: Thank you, Marc.
Marc Steiner: Once again, thank you to Joyce Ajlouny for her work and for joining us today. We thank all of you for joining us today. We’ll link to the work of the American Friends Service Committee in Gaza and the West Bank on our site here at The Real News. We’ll keep you up to date on issues happening in Palestine and what the Friends are doing, as you heard at the end of our conversation.
Thanks to Cameron Granadino for running and editing the show today, and the tireless Kayla Rivara for making it all work behind the scenes, and everyone here at The Real News for making this show possible.
Please let me know what you thought about what you heard today, what you’d like us to cover. Just write to me at mss@therealnews.com, and I’ll get right back to you.
Once again, thank you to Joyce Ajlouny for this enlightening conversation. For the crew here at The Real News, I’m Marc Steiner. Stay involved, keep listening, and take care.
Republish our articles for free, online or in print, under a Creative Commons license.
