Most ultimate frisbee players don’t have to consider how an Israeli checkpoint might disrupt their plans for a game—but this is the reality of life in Palestine. The story of the small but vibrant subculture of Palestinian ultimate frisbee enthusiasts offers a glimpse into life under Israeli occupation that is too often unseen by the outside world. Edge of Sports host Dave Zirin speaks with Daniel Bannoura, founder of ‘Ultimate Palestine‘.
Studio Production: Cameron Granadino
Post-Production: Taylor Hebden
Audio Post-Production: David Hebden
Opening Sequence: Cameron Granadino
Music by: Eze Jackson & Carlos Guillen
Transcript
The following is a rushed transcript and may contain errors. A proofread version will be made available as soon as possible.
Dave Zirin:
Welcome to Edge of Sports, brought to you by the Real News Network. I’m Dave Zirin. This week we are talking to a Palestinian scholar and activist, currently finishing his doctorate studies in theology at the University of Notre Dame. But we’re talking to him because he’s the founder of Ultimate Palestine, the Palestinian National Association for the World Flying Disc Federation. His name is Dan Bannoura. Let’s talk to him right now. Dan Bannoura, thank you so much for joining us here on Edge of Sports.
Daniel Bannoura:
Thanks, David. It’s good to be with you.
Dave Zirin:
I was hoping before we start speaking about what’s happening right now in Gaza, could you talk to us about your background and how you got into seeing that Ultimate Frisbee and Palestine were really two things that had to come together?
Daniel Bannoura:
Yeah, thanks for that, David. And really I’m very grateful for the chance to be hosted here to talk with you about this issue. I think it’s very important for people in the West to come and hear the Palestinian story, the Palestinian experience, the Palestinian narrative. It’s a narrative that has been largely ignored or even many in the West have been shielded from understanding the Palestinian perspective. For the most part, they receive a single narrative, a one-sided narrative. So I am very grateful for this opportunity to come here and speak with you. So briefly about myself. So my name is Daniel Bannoura. I am from the town of Bethlehem in the West Bank. I was born in Jerusalem, grew up in Bethlehem. By profession, I am a theologian. I’m not an athlete, I’m not a coach, but my profession is in theology.
I’m actually currently in the US working on my PhD in theology. I’m a PhD candidate studying the Quran, late antique history, Christian Muslim relations in the early Islamic period at the University of Notre Dame in the US. But I am from Palestine. I grew up in Bethlehem. My family is from a small town right next to Bethlehem called Beit Sahour. Family goes back generations as native local indigenous people of the land who called Palestine home and who have been living in Palestine for a long time.
Now with regards to Ultimate and the Ultimate Palestine story as an organization and how Ultimate came to be in Palestine, I picked up Ultimate at the University of Florida. I was doing my undergraduate studies at the University of Florida and there, just randomly, I got connected with some people who were playing some Ultimate Frisbee on Sunday afternoons and I joined them.
I used to play a lot of soccer growing up in the Middle East. And really around the world, soccer or football is the main sport. As soon as I played Ultimate Frisbee, quickly fell in love with the sport. There’s something very unique and special about that sport. It’s very friendly, it’s very active and you love the flow of the Frisbee, you love the movement on the field and just fell in love. And in many ways, just shifted my focus and my interests and my hobbies and really in many ways became obsessed with that sport. And so I finished my undergraduate studies at the University of Florida, I got myself a Frisbee and I went back to Palestine and I started playing with some friends and we had pick up practices and I introduced a sport to many of them.
There were some expats in the area, internationals who were living in Bethlehem, and they came to join us as well and we kept playing on and off. And then I went back to the US for a master’s degree at the University of Chicago. And I kept playing there and competing there locally in the Chicago area. And then when I came back to the US in 2013, we picked up practices again. And by the year 2014, we realized that hey, there’s maybe a need for us to mobilize and organize ourselves as not just random, friendly pickup practices or plays, but actually as an organization that is focusing on the development and the growth of Ultimate in Palestine and the hope was to create a truly Palestinian sport.
As the audience might know, Ultimate is an American sport. It was invented in the 70s in the US among high school and university campuses. And my desire was to move away from a more western dominant or American dominant discourse or practice of the sport and to make the sport truly Palestinian, truly a local sport. And there were some organizations that were functioning in the area that adopted, I think, a very problematic discourse that we’re using sport as a tool to bring peace by putting Palestinians and Israelis together in a very unhealthy and unsafe environment where they pretend to be friends and enjoy the sport in a way that would just have fun and get along.
And based on the false premise, that the reason for conflict is actually ignorance, that people do not know each other. And rather than actually trying to solve the issues and address the issues, their approach was to not talk politics and not talk about our differences, not talk about their realities, “Let’s just shut up and play.” Or in the American context, “Shut up and dribble,” or inherent for us, “Then shut up and pass the Frisbee.” “Pass the disc.” And then that was a very problematic discourse and we realized this is not really authentic to the Palestinian experience. It’s not even our story to tell. This is something that is imposed on us by a western American, what is called now the peace industry that focuses on peace as an industry rather than on peace, as an active peace that comes as a result of justice and equity. I’m happy to unpack that later.
But then the decision was like, “No, we’re not going to be part of this industry. We are going to create our own organization. We are going to be as Palestinians in charge of our own sports and we’re going to play as we want,” and have actually an authentically Palestinian sport. And so that led to the growth and the idea of Ultimate Palestine as an organization or as an association that represents Palestinians as they play Ultimate throughout Palestine. And we focus mainly in the West Bank, just by the consideration of my locale and the people around me and the leaders and the coaches in the West Bank area. So we began in Bethlehem and soon enough, we expanded to Ramallah, to a major city in the West Bank and established an Ultimate community there. And then slowly kept growing in different ways. We would be running practices at schools, at local middle schools and high schools. We would have showcasing activities at different athletic organizations.
We expanded to Hebron, we expanded to Jerusalem. But then all of that, I was still following and we as an organization, were following a very naive understanding of sports, which is that sports is for fun and sports is an escape and that’s it. So we just go to vent, we just go to release our energy and frustrations and we just go to hang out with friends and have fun.
But then as we were growing from just friends having fun into a structure, into some kind of organization that is doing something proactive, that is actually involved in the community, it quickly became apparent to us that sports and politics are inseparable. For example, whenever we want to go to Ramallah, this on the map, if you see the geography there, Bethlehem is in the middle, and then you have Jerusalem there, right on the north side of Bethlehem, and then Ramallah comes right after.
So if you, David, would come to the West Bank, if you would come to Palestine and you rent a car and you want to drive from Bethlehem to Ramallah and you would just go through Jerusalem and into Ramallah, that would take you 25 minutes, maximum 30 minutes, 35 minutes and you’re there. For me, as a Palestinian, you are on a tourist visa, you have that easy access and mobility to move and travel. Me, as a native person, who’s always known this as my home, I do not have the same rights and freedoms that you as a tourist have. And so the path for me to take is not to go straight up, which is the most logical path, to go straight up on the road. Because of the system that exists in the West Bank, which is a system of domination and control by an Israeli military, by foreign military that comes into your land and controls your life, it’s a system of a division and conquering of the Palestinians.
So the West Bank is divided into a structure of Bantustans or basically, these pockets of Palestinian property and life and organization. But then these pockets are controlled by the system of roads and a separation wall or what is called the “apartheid wall” that goes throughout the West Bank and snakes through the Palestinian territory. So for me, if I’m going to go from Bethlehem to Ramallah, which should take me half an hour, I would have to go on bypass roads, passing through checkpoints from Bethlehem, going northeast and then going back northwest towards Ramallah. That trip, which should have taken me half an hour if I went straight up, takes me an hour and a half. And why does it take me an hour and a half and sometimes takes me longer? If there’s a checkpoint that is blocked and so on and so forth, it would take me even longer. But I would have to pass through two different checkpoints at least, sometimes there will be more than two checkpoints, one checkpoint out of Bethlehem and then one checkpoint into Ramallah.
So that is a product of a political reality that I did not choose and this is not a reality that I voted for as a Palestinian. It’s actually a foreign government that I did not vote for, has dictated what kind of life I would have as a Palestinian. And it’s a life of a military occupation with walls, with roads, with checkpoints that impacts my life
Dave Zirin:
From what I’m getting from what you’re saying is that it is possible to get one hell of a view of the reality of what oppression means in the West Bank and Gaza by looking at it through the lens of Ultimate Frisbee.
Daniel Bannoura:
Going to Hebron in the south of Bethlehem, so the first time or the second time we went to Bethlehem, to Hebron, sorry, to lead these practices, we got pulled over by a flying checkpoint, a temporary checkpoint that popped up by Israeli soldiers. And we were stopped and we were delayed for so long and the players were waiting for us, just because of this immediate sudden checkpoint by the Israeli military. They were walking around the area and they blocked the movement of traffic. Jerusalem as well, as Jerusalem is recognized as the capital of the Palestinian State. I had some access to Jerusalem at some point, but then most coaches in the West Bank do not have access to Jerusalem, even though it is their capital. Even though Palestinian history and culture and religion, religious practices are centered in Jerusalem for Christians and for Muslims, but most of us do not have access. Sometimes we would have access, we would go and we would coach there.
There’s a club we used to work with in Jerusalem, but then we couldn’t sustain that because we did not have the access to Jerusalem. Again, that anyone else, if you’re not a Palestinian, even if you’re a tourist, on a tourist visa, you’d have access to. So the system of discrimination was very evident to us. And the system at large, for people who just wanted to understand the context, which we cannot really explain here well, this is a context of 76 years now of supremacy and control over the Palestinian people where Israel now controls the land, the sea, the air and the resources of the land. And the Palestinians are stuck under the military and civil control of Israel.
So Palestinians in the West Bank are under military control. Palestinians in east Jerusalem are under civil control, but they’re still not even citizens, they’re even residents. And you have Palestinian citizens of Israel who live under civil control, but also they are treated as second class citizens with very obvious discrimination in the laws as well. And there’s also the Gaza Strip, which has been under blockade for 17 years now.
Dave Zirin:
You’re making the great point. It’s like when does sports cease to be just sports? Oftentimes when it is performed under conditions of extreme oppression and I was hoping you could speak to that. Of course independently, or I should say, before the horrors that we’re seeing visited upon Gaza at the moment, people lived in conditions of great oppression. What role did sports play in Gaza before the recent bombings and killings that have been taking place in the region?
Daniel Bannoura:
Yeah, that’s a really good question. And like I said, I’ve had the chance to go to Gaza in 2020 and since then, had such a wonderful experience working with these coaches in Gaza and also the players there, and it’s been such a remarkable experience for me. As a Palestinian who also, I’m one of the privileged ones. I have access, have mobility, I’m in the US, my family’s naturalized American citizens and so on, and I had more affluence and more power than they had. And it’s been such a heartbreaking experience for me, but also so joyous and wonderful. And David, I cannot think of a more wonderful, kind, generous people than the people of Gaza and they’re just remarkably kind and hospitable.
I was there for a three day training of Ultimate, an intensive three days, just working with them on Ultimate, and I’ve been floored by the generosity and the kindness. I’ve been hosted by them taking me everywhere.
I remember this experience, I went to the house of one of the coaches and had dinner with them at the house and we were just sitting down having tea and talking, and the father was… And he made this statement, and maybe it would sound better in Arabic, but basically he said, “Hey, we live in an anthill. This is not the prettiest place, but we are in love of our anthill. We love where we are. We love Gaza.” And this sense of pride and joy, living in a situation, in a place that is so hard, infrastructure is terrible. The UN in 2018 or so, said that by the year 2020, the Gaza Strip would be uninhabitable. There was no clean water in Gaza, no facilities, no solid infrastructure. But then this sense of joy and belonging and identity in that place, in the midst of poverty and anguish and trauma of war and blood and blood spill and so on, it’s just been incredible to see.
But despite all of that, they’re just full of joy, happy people and generous people. And that experience has had such a powerful impact on me personally, even as a Palestinian. So imagine the American or the average audience here listening to this, what it would be like for them to be in that context as people who have been oppressed for a very long time.
But now sports, and to answer the question directly here, from my experience with them, sports has been a very powerful tool for development and for raising leaders. And for also helping the kids of Gaza to process their oppression and the violence that they face and the trauma and to use sport as a way to build themselves up. So the work that the coaches have been doing there has been incredible. Just from my experience, seeing the work they’re doing and chatting with them and their involvement in the local community, through their clubs, where they coach through running different vocational and athletic summer camps for the youth there. And using sport, not just to have fun and not just to learn the skill of passing the disc or passing the ball, but also using sport as a tool for development to teach them social skills, communication skills, developmental skills. So not just sport as athleticism and skill, but actually sport as development, as growth, as discipleship, as training and so on.
Dave Zirin:
That’s amazing. That’s the spirit of the game that you’re talking about, and that’s why Ultimate, even compared to other sports has a poetry of liberation to it that perhaps other sports do not have.
Daniel Bannoura:
So David, this is the biggest thing that I am so passionate about, and actually if you ask me why I don’t play soccer anymore, I would tell you it’s because of this idea, this concept of the spirit of the game. Now, to explain what that is, usually in sports, the focus is on sportsmanship or on healthy conduct or honesty, but usually sportsmanship is maintained and controlled by referees, by a system of cameras and technologies. Now in soccer, you have the VAR system where you can review what happened. Was that a penalty? Was that an offside?
Of course, in the US, you see this strongly and for example, in the NFL with meticulous study of tape to see what actually happened. Now, Ultimate is perhaps the only sport in the world that does not need referees, and it’s based on this value that is called “Spirit of the Game,” that among many says, gives a responsibility of speaking the truth, of saying what happened, on the players and not on an outside observer or coach or leader or referee.
So everyone becomes a referee. Everyone now has a responsibility to speak truth and to advocate for what’s right. And now, if you compare this for example to other sports, you see this a lot in soccer, other sports, they fake injuries, they pretend that they were pushed. And you see the videos of premier athletes, the role models in the world who are fake and trying to deceive the ref to issue a yellow card or a red card or a foul and so on and so forth, or a penalty.
So Ultima says like, “No, we’re going to create an environment. We’re going to foster a culture of honesty.” So what that looks like practically on the field is that if a foul is being committed, I can safe out. So if someone basically slaps my arm trying to reach for the disc and that movement, that action impeded my ability to play well, I could shout, I could say “Foul” and check this out, David… And then everyone who heard me has a responsibility to stop the game, stop playing and echo my voice. So I said “Foul.” So just make sure that everyone else can hear what was said. Everyone is going to have to echo “Foul, foul, foul.” And that’s when the game stops.
This is super unique. This doesn’t happen in any other sport. Basically what is happening there is someone was injured, something was done to a person that really impeded their ability to play the best as they can. And therefore it’s everyone’s responsibility to fix that error, to make sure that this is going to be done well. So spirit of their game and this rule of self-officiation… Of course, it requires people to know the rules of Ultimate, obviously, but then gives that sense of giving agency to the players to speak up and to pursue their truth for the sake of justice.
Dave Zirin:
Oh, Dan, that’s so beautiful, man, the way you put that. But now that idea of what Ultimate can be to the people of the West Bank and Gaza has run right into the wall of this war on Gaza and the West Bank, which is taking place all around us. What effect has that had on your work and these young people who have taken up the sport?
Daniel Bannoura:
The war broke out on October 7th. And like I said, Gazens, just my friends in Gaza, just wonderful, incredible, full of life, full of energy and joy and also very broken people. And so when the war broke out, I was just devastated and I was acting more as a Palestinian. I was not acting as a coach or as the head of Ultimate Palestine or as someone functioning within an organization, I was like, “Hey, this has actually hit me first and hit me as well.” And for two weeks, I was just in shock of what’s happening and just the numbers, the death toll in Gaza and the destruction was just traumatizing for me. And I was messaging my friends. It’s like, “Hey, how are you doing?” And they were like, “Yeah, we don’t know what’s going to happen. Keep us in your prayers,” and so on.
And then the war intensifies in Gaza and you lose contact with them. We don’t really know what was happening to them and was super hard for us. For me, personally and also as Palestinians, to see that your people are being bombed and being killed and there’s nothing you can do about it and this is outside of your control. And this has been enabled by a system of oppression that led some Palestinians to violence, but then functioning within a system that thinks that violence has a redemptive value and then violence is a solution.
And the only solution to Gaza is to bomb Gaza once again. And not just to bomb Gaza, but also to commit a genocide as we’re seeing now unfolding, being televised to us, mass destruction of properties, of lives. And 27,000 people have been killed. What is 12,000 children have been killed as well, and just heartbreaking reality. But before even these numbers racked up, first response is like we’re in shock and then talking with the friends and so on. And then eventually we got the news that one of our coaches, Maha, her brother was killed. Another coach, his dad was killed. Another coach, his two cousins were killed. And now it’s like, okay, well this is not just a Palestinian issue now this is actually impacting Ultimate Palestine as an association.
And then eventually the news came to us that one of our coaches, Hamed Shakar, a wonderful human being, kind and funny and just full of life, was also killed. And this is when we realized we cannot stay quiet. We have to speak. And like I said earlier, I’m not just a coach, I’m an advocate. I’m an ally. My job as a coach is to make sure that my players are healthy, my players are doing well, that I’m providing a safe environment for them. And right now, there’s no safe environment for them. They’re being affected by it.
And so we, as Ultimate Palestine, we released a statement I co-authored with one of our organizers, and we released a statement to the Ultimate community. “Hey, this is not a political issue that is far removed from you. This is actually a human issue that is affecting human rights, but it’s also affecting athletes and is affecting Ultimate Frisbee players. And actually also led to the death of one of our coaches, Hammed Shakar.” And again, and I tried to describe that earlier, how actually politics plays a very concrete negative role in our experience, in mobility, in access to facilities and access to top level sports. But now, politics is actually killing our players and coaches. And when we’re talking about 10,000 children killed in Gaza, we’re talking about 10,000 potential athletes that were killed in Gaza or 10,000 athletes already have been killed in Gaza.
So again, I’m an advocate, being a coach means I’m going to advocate for my players. And then that’s when we have to step up. Now here being in the US, we have a partnership in the US registered as a nonprofit for Ultimate Palestine. And we just mobilized ourselves and said, “We have to speak up and we have to do some things.” So we’ll release some statements. And since then we just received an incredible support from many athletes, clubs, organizations in the US that saw the statement and shared the statement on their Instagram and also released statements for ceasefire. And our hope, our desire was, “Hey, this is happening to athletes.” We remember that the IOC, the International Olympic Committee and also WFDF, the world’s Flying Disc Federation, have issued statements previously when Russia invaded Ukraine. And they made very long and detailed statements saying, “Hey, we do not support this war. We’re going to sanction the Russian Federation from competition at the Olympics, and we’re going to sanction Russian players from any competition.”
And even WFDF, so just to back up, so Ultimate Palestine is recognized as a full member of WFDF. WFDF is the World Flying Disc Federation. So it’s basically the governing body of all flying disc sports, including Ultimate Frisbee. So we are full members of WFDF, the World Federation. And our appeal was like, “Hey, since WFDF has already made its entry into politics by making a statement against the Russian War, it makes sense then that they would want to do something for Palestine.”
What’s the difference between Ukrainians and Palestinians? Nothing. All of us are human. And there’s a political reality, geopolitics between Russia and NATO and so on, but that’s complicated. But they took a principled ethical position to advocate for justice and to reject this war on Ukraine.
So it’s like, “Hey, Russia occupied parts of Ukraine, militarily, we are occupied. Russia is killing Ukrainians, we are being killed right now. Not only that, we know that at least one coach has been killed. We know that many coaches have suffered, who lost family members. We don’t know what happened to our players because everyone is now displaced in Gaza and they lost communication and they don’t have phones or internet. We don’t even know. We probably lost some players who have been playing Ultimate Frisbee. Hey, WFDF, governing body of Ultimate maybe should release a statement asking for a ceasefire. Maybe you want to advocate for your players that you represent.”
So we pushed for that and many clubs and organizations were tagging WFDF on Instagram, were sending emails to them. But then radio silence, there was no response. Eventually, with more pressure that was put on WFDF, WFDF decided to release this very, and they made it very explicit, so people can look this up, WFDF statement on Gaza and Israel and so on, and they released this very explicitly short statement saying that they mourn the loss of life in what is happening in Palestine. And didn’t even say Palestine. I think they said in the Middle East, a very broad, generic language.
Dave Zirin:
It’s a shocking double standard. Do you think their inability to come out stronger for a ceasefire goes against the very ethos of the sport?
Daniel Bannoura:
Yeah, that’s a really great question, David. And to be fair, many Ultimate communities have come out very strongly and who are saying, “Hey, the sport tells us that we need to advocate for Palestine right now.” And I described to you previously about spirit of the game. It is a tool for justice. It’s a tool to stop the game. “Okay, we have to stop now. We have to talk about a foul that has been committed.” And what we’re saying, “A foul is being committed in Gaza right now. We have to stop the game.” One of the requirements of spirit of the game is to make sure that the field is safe so that the players can play without projectiles coming at them or the fence falling over. That’s literally what is happening in Gaza. Fences, buildings are coming down, rockets and airstrikes are falling down on them.
We have to stop the game. We have to make sure that the field is clear and the players can play safely. And so for many athletes, it was very obvious. Yeah, of course, Ultimate, this is what we do as coaches, and it’s been, I said this earlier, but it’s been such an incredible outpouring of support and it clicked for many coaches and for many teams. And you have so many clubs and organizations who have released very strong statements and they’re drawing on the spirit of Ultimate, on the sport to make that very easy connection, connecting sports to politics.
It makes sense to make that jump, but then you wonder the guardians of spirit of the game, those who say that they advocate for players cannot make that statement. So there’s something here that is very wrong and very problematic. And that’s why you ask, “Okay, well, if you say that you are the guardian of the sport, if you say that you care for the players, why aren’t you doing this?” We are going to have to say, obviously there is a double standard. Obviously Palestinians do not really matter in how people in the West think about Palestine.
Dave Zirin:
There’s no other reason that makes sense about what are the foreign policy dictates of the West, more specifically the United States and how they reflect themselves even at the level of Ultimate Frisbee and basic human justice. I mean, it’s enraging. Well, Dan, you’ve been so generous with your time. I just have one more question for you, which is how can people support your work? How can people support Ultimate Palestine?
Daniel Bannoura:
Yeah, thanks for that, David. First, thank you for giving me the chance to speak and share this. Obviously, this means a lot. This is very important and this means a lot to me. And again, I’m coming to this as an advocate and someone who’s pursuing, not a political resolution through Ultimate, but actually want to learn how to use Ultimate as a tool for transformation, but also in the larger sense. And this is something that you have dealt with to understand the interconnectedness of connectedness of sports and politics. And I think it’s obvious that they go hand in hand here. And I think my hope for people, before I can specifically address how they can support Ultimate Palestine, is for themselves to realize that they have to do the work, they have to educate themselves. They have to understand that sports is not an escape. Sports is a social activity that happens within a social political reality that impact the lives and the psyche and the emotions and the thoughts of people.
And this idea that sports is merely for entertainment, “Shut up and dribble. Don’t share your thoughts. I don’t want to hear it from you. Just play. Just pass the ball,” is not acceptable. So that’s the baseline. You have to do the work, you have to understand this. You have to move beyond this very consumerist, entertainment-focused attitude towards sports into a more critical and analytical way of thinking about it. And accordingly, you act or do not act. Many people do not act. This is complicated. This is far away from me.
No, we need to understand that you are complicit, that your silence is complicity, especially if you’re an American. Your government is paying for this. It is your government. It is the US government. It is the White House. It is the Congress that is funneling weapons to serve its own military industry complex, to serve its own national interests, to bomb Palestinians and to kill athletes in Gaza.
You are part of that issue. You’re complicit. When you’re being silent. You’re saying, “I don’t mind my tax dollars being used to kill people and I’m okay with it.” And so silence is complicity and therefore you have to do something. If you do not want people to die, if you consider yourself a good person, then you need to speak up. So that is, in the general sense of how do you respond to the war, I think that’s what people need to do. Now when it comes to Ultimate Palestine, people can follow us on Instagram, see the work we’re doing @ULTIMATEPALESTINE. We also are registered in the US as a nonprofit. It’s called Ultimate Palestine Partnership, and people can help and donate.
Now, we are launching a campaign to raise money to our athletes and coaches in Gaza. So if people want to be part of that, they can find our information on our website and on our Instagram, and people can buy some of our merch like Frisbees and jerseys and so on that are also available on our website on ultimatepalestine.com
So there’s plenty of work that people can do, and I hope that people would feel motivated to do that work, especially right now when this genocide is being committed in front of our eyes in Gaza.
Dave Zirin:
If we could get everybody for whom flying discs are part of their lives to throw a Frisbee at the White House at the same time, we could get a ceasefire. If people took the ethos of what you are doing and what the sport has done historically to heart, then we could get a ceasefire.
Daniel Bannoura, thank you so much for your work.
Daniel Bannoura:
Thanks, David. It’s good to talk with you, and I’m very grateful for this chance. Thank you.
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